Break off Altitude

[nael 0]

I've just joined a team and we were told to break off at 4k. I thought this would be fine (although I'm used to breaking off at 4.5k) and decided to go with it - no big deal. Upon checking my pro track though, it seems I am only under canopy at 2.3 - 2.5k regularly now. That's too low for my liking, I'm a new jumper with no cutaways yet and want all the time I can get. My hard deck is 2k, that doesnt give me very long to evaluate a situation.

The problem is when I suggested we break off at 4.5k I was told that since we have to break off at 4k in competition we should keep it that way all the time instead of introducing new factors to the dive during comp. I dont see that as an issue, I'm not happy with 4k break off but I have no choice during comp.

Then it was suggested I dont track as far as everyone else, which I am also not happy with because I dont want to get into the habit of doing a short track, and I quite enjoy having separation from other jumpers on opening!

In fairness the only person who doesnt think 4.5k break off is a good idea is the tutor, the others are fine with it either way. Has anyone got any experiences with these sort of team differences? I dont want to cause problems with the team, but having a canopy over my head at a height I am comfortable with is the most important thing to me (weird huh ) Also, if I'm over reacting let me know too!

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[migliore 0]

Keep in mind that the altitude the protrack give you is your "in the saddle altitude"...it is not your deployment altitude. If you are truly uncomfortable, insist on 4.5, but know that you are really only arguing over ~2 seconds. If you're under canopy at 2.3-2.5k, you are probably dumping at or just above 3k, which is pretty normal for 4way.

Shane

[nael 0]

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Keep in mind that the altitude the protrack give you is your "in the saddle altitude"...it is not your deployment altitude. If you are truly uncomfortable, insist on 4.5, but know that you are really only arguing over ~2 seconds. If you're under canopy at 2.3-2.5k, you are probably dumping at or just above 3k, which is pretty normal for 4way.

Yeah, I realise that the pro track altitude is the altitude when I have a canopy over my head. If I was dumping at 2.3 - 2.5k you can bet I'd be kicking up even more fuss than I am now!

Also, 2 seconds in freefall is a lot of time under canopy, and that's my point. 2 seconds in freefall is nothing, so might as well be more comfortable and have an open canopy by 2.8 - 3k right?

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[larsrulz 0]

If you don't feel comfortable with the altitude they want you to break off, and they are unwilling to change it so that you feel safer, then they aren't concerned about your safety and there is no foul in choosing to no longer jump with this team. I would recommend you speak with your fellow teammates separately, and ask them to join you in speaking with the coach. If you all desire break off at 4.5K, then if he proceeds to indicate otherwise, then it's time to find a new coach!

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[sundevil777 93]

4.5K is normal break altitude for a 8-10 way or even slightly larger.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[nael 0]

I get along well with everyone in the team, this is just a minor setback, I dont want to threaten to quit or make our tutor quit. I also dont want to cause stress in the team, I was just looking for other people's experience with this sort of thing.

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[tr027 0]

Improve your tracking skills, so you achieve separation quicker and can pull higher than 3K.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[Extrakt 0]

Its your life, if you don't like something then change it.
Some people you just have to be strong with and tell em how its going to be. Failing that, I would just track off a 4.5 anyway. Whoops I misread my alti! I thought it was 4, sorry man.

"If murder and suicide are illegal, then why is it ok to kill yourself and others with cigarettes?????"

www.myspace.com/Hypoxicmusic

[Erroll 49]

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Failing that, I would just track off a 4.5 anyway. Whoops I misread my alti! I thought it was 4, sorry man.

Plan the dive and dive the plan!

[dgrabowski 4]

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I've just joined a team and we were told to break off at 4k.

......

The problem is when I suggested we break off at 4.5k I was told that since we have to break off at 4k in competition we should keep it that way all the time instead of introducing new factors to the dive during comp. I dont see that as an issue, I'm not happy with 4k break off but I have no choice during comp.

4-way competitions are based on a 35-second working time, not a breakoff altitude. You should be able to break off at 4500 feet -- those 35 seconds will most likely have already elapsed.

MHO - don't compromise your feeling of safety (whether real or not) for your team. If you're not comfortable with the breakoff altitude, that is what will be on your mind during the skydive, and your performance will suffer.

If I were you, I would ask the meet director if my team could exit from full altitude instead of competition altitude. You'll have extra time in the air (you could pull at 7000 feet if you wanted to). It won't count towards the competition, but you might learn something with the extra airtime.

[GQ_jumper 4]

there as a thread on team agreements a little while ago, give it a look over it was pretty good. but one of the agreements that a lot of people brought up were safety issues, if one person on the team is uncomfortable with it then everyone on the team should respect that, there should be no attitude of quit bein a baby and do what everyone else does. i'm ont sayin this is the case with your tutor but its not very responsible for him to be taking you outside your comfort zone. sit down with the team have everyone state what they want to see happen. if your team agrees to it then guess what, the tutor should have no say.

good luck

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[rehmwa 2]

Sure, you should feel comfortable, but 4500 is pretty high, more likely appropriate for freefly breakoff. Maybe some retraining on canopy control/emergency procedures and some hop and pops from 2500 feet might get you over your fear. Also, there are recommended 'in the saddle' recommendations for each license range based on experience and an assumption that more experience means faster response to high speed malfunctions. Go with that - track fast and open at the right altitude.

Break off altitude continues to get higher and higher as dropzones train out of turbines. When students did static line from Cessnas, exit altitudes were lower than many experienced people now insist on for breakoff altitudes.

Now, I do track off at 3000 - 3500 now since my current canopy opens slower (instead of geeking my teammates and throwing in a "bud" spin at the end of the dive). But even with the slower openings, I'm still sitting in it by 2000.

You might just be tracking either too slow, or too long for 4-way. If it's an 8-way or bigger, I don't see 4500 as a big deal and the teammates should respect that.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DrewGPM 0]

I've never heard that you had to break off at 4k during competition...is that a real rule? If that is an official rule, then I agree with your tutor...break off at 4k. If it's not a rule, then change the breakoff altitude....it's your team, not his.

Several years ago I was told that one of the top teams in the US was breaking off training jumps at 4,500'. Since then I break almost all of my jumps at that altitude. The extra 500 feet isn't going to add to your scores, and it gives everyone time to track and pull at 3k. I'm a huge fan of separation at pull time.

A common number being thrown out is that you should breakoff at pull altutide + 1,500'. If you are pulling at 3,000 then 4,500 is the time for breakoff.

[DrewGPM 0]

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I get along well with everyone in the team, this is just a minor setback, I dont want to threaten to quit or make our tutor quit. I also dont want to cause stress in the team, I was just looking for other people's experience with this sort of thing.

What kind of tutor would quit because you, for safety reasons, prefer to break off at 4.5k? That's insane! He can't be that good of a coach that you'd sacrifice safety just keep him happy.

[Skyflyer1 0]

Seems to be people going both ways on the forum for this one. I can tell you what my teams do.

I have roughly 1350 jumps, about 1000 of those are team training jumps. Last year I told the team that I would be tracking away at 4500, and thats where the dive ends for me. If they want to not track then thats fine. In the end they all tracked at 4.5k with me.

This year Im jumping with a group of guys for the meets (pickup), Im the low jump # guy, the next lowest has 2200 going up to 5000+. I asked if they were cool with breaking at 4,500 cause the extra 500 feet of alt was WAY more important than the 3 seconds of freefall time. They all agreed enthusiastically.

In competition from 10,500 feet the 35 seconds expires around 6'000 feet. So its really a non issue to break off at 4.5 k feet.

But even breaking at 4.5 K then tracking to 3.5 I'm ussually open at 2.3 K Because my velocity snivels for many many hundred feet. (Same reason the rest of the team wanted 4.5)
Its just not worth it to take it lower.

I've done the whole open lower thing, realized its not worth it, better to be comfortable and have that extra 500 feet to work with under canopy.

Be comfortable, be safe, if you feel you are too low right now in the saddle then let the team know you'll be tracking at 4.5k feet, if you all do it the "tutor" cant really do anything, and on video you dont really know the difference.

Jonathan
GTInviscid 01-02
GTFusion 03
PNF 04
AFFI

[dgskydive 0]

You have to do what makes you feel comfortable, but your tutor is right about 4k. Might as well get used to it now. Comp. jumps are also only from 10.5 so it is a short freefall and you want all the time you can get.

AS you get more exprienced you will see that 4k is a pretty standard break off altitude for smaller ways. Now stress at all. If you are in the saddle where you say you are I would think you would have plenty of time to sort out weather you need to go to the reserve or not.

Once again do what makes you feel comfortable. I just have to tease you a bit and say, "Get over it you big pu--y!"

Dom

[DrewGPM 0]

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I've never heard that you had to break off at 4k during competition...

I stand corrected. I was PM'd by a friend who tells me that the USPA competition manual states that 4-way break off should be no higher that 3,500. He said at Eloy a few years ago the teams were warned that breaking this rule twice during the competition could result in disqualification.

I assume other country's have similar rules for the Championships. As long as you are not planning to attend the championships, then I say go with 4,500 as break off.

[Reginald 0]

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I stand corrected. I was PM'd by a friend who tells me that the USPA competition manual states that 4-way break off should be no higher that 3,500.

Whoa! The SCM says nothing about the breakoff being “no higher” than 3,500 feet! It says:

A. The intent of these breakoff procedures is to ensure
that safety requirements and responsible, cooperative
conduct are followed by teams and videographers.

B. Breakoff altitude
1. 4-Way—3,500 feet
2. 8-Way, 10-Way, and 16-Way—4,000 feet

I think most reasonable people would construe this to mean no LOWER than 3,500. As the SIM does for container opening altitudes, etc.

As for the original posters question, from a 10,500 exit the 35 seconds is up at 5,000 (please do the math yourself to prove it out) so for a rookie team a breakoff of 4,500 is just fine in competition and especially in training. If this is where you feel safe then talk to people and stick to your guns about it!

Remember guys we are talking about a low timer here and presumably a low time team, breaking higher and pulling a little higher is a good thing for them right now

Personally my 4 way team breaks at 4,000 on training dives but at 4,500 in competition. Hell the dive is long since over and given we are frequently at other DZ’s with swamps, etc to navigate if you land off I’d rather have 500 feet of canopy ride than 2.5 seconds of freefall with no scoring opportunity.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[nael 0]

Thank you all for your input. Our tutor suggested that we break off at 4.5k until November or so and then lower it to 4 so that we're breaking off at 4k at the nationals.

As for my track, I am usually pulling higher than the rest of the team after our track anyway, so my track cant be too bad. Maybe I am tracking too long, but I usually pull at just above 3k, which I guess is about normal. I'm just used to opening at around 2.9 or 3. We'll see what happens.

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[Albatross 0]

While all of this is a great discussion it comes down to Don't do ANYTHING that makes you feel uncomfortable. A 4-way TEAM is just that which means that the TEAM makes it so that everyone is in a place that they are comfortable, challenged, and safe. Even in a 300 way you would not be asked to do something that you did not feel good with. Your team should be willing to do SOMETHING to give you the pull altitude you need. Taking the center and having video track, breaking higher... There are many solutions but NO ONE should be jumping and not feeling comfortable about something as basic as pull time.

Chris

[mjosparky 3]

First of all as a tutor or coach he is there to coach and advise not to dictate. Unless he is doing this for nothing, he works for the team, as in hired help.

4 way at the nationals exits at 10,500 feet (I believe) and has 35 seconds of working time. In 35 sec. you cover 5,500 feet. That means after you freefall through 5,000 feet agl your working time is over. Breaking at 4,500 gives you a couple of sec. cushion and keeps your jump more realistic to what competition will be like. If you don’t want to go to 4,000 feet don’t. Calmly state your case to your teammates, without the coach there. If they agree with you on this, go to the coach and tell him that on future jumps break off will be 4,000 feet. Case closed.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[DrewGPM 0]

The portion you postd from the competitors manual could be interpreted two way. The 3,500' break is the lowest any team can break off OR All teams must break off at 3,500'...no higher, no lower. For safety sake, it would make sense to ask everyone to use the same breakoff altitude.

I wish I had saved his PM. He was pretty specific that the staff told the teams they had to break off 3,500. Hopefully he'll read this thread again and help clarify this.

[dgskydive 0]

The rule is no lower then. The staff was nuts.

Dom

[jmpwme 0]

I would be stunned if anybody at USPA or Eloy instructed anybody to breakoff no "higher" than 3500. I haven't heard of any 4 way teams leaving at 3500 for at least 5 or 6 years now. Comp manual is intended to mean no "lower" than 3500. Repeated low pulls (ie: twice) will/can get you disqualified from a competition and it has happened. I'm not entirely sure, but I do believe a competitor in the Artistic Events was DQ'd last year following a cypres fire.

As for this thread - plenty of top 4-way teams break-off at 4500 even at meets. Break off where you are comfortable. If you are leaving lower than where you are comfortable, your skydive will suffer as you will be focused on break-off rather than the skydive.

Steve
GT

[BenediktDE 2]

I insist on not breaking off under 4 265ft (1,300m) because I want to pull over 3,000ft (not under 900m).

If the sight is not perfect (e.g. small pieces of clouds) I even break off 2 seconds earlier than that.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.