4-ways

[LilSal 0]

Im having trouble with fall rate on my 4-ways, on my first one i ended up being way above everyone else with no hope of getting down, and my next one i kept sinking out (was with different people)

I have done 3 of them now and just cant seem to work out the fall rate thing.

I havent had a problem when its just me and 1 other person.

Does anyone have any suggestions to help with this?

[damion75 0]

I reckon that along with backsliding, fall rate has to one of the hardest things to conquer - the good news is that if you have both floated and sunk out, then the correct fall rate is almost certainly within your reach with your current suit.

Other than that the only thing I can suggest is more coached 2 way and 4 way with a coach who has video. A video debrief by someone who has jumped with you will be far more effective than anything anyone can try and describe in words on the forum.

I would also say that at 34 jumps you are doing really well to even be trying 4-way so do not be discouraged!! Good luck and have fun.
As Harryskydives says on his sig line, 4-way is life - everything else is just details!!

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Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[billvon 2,384]

>Does anyone have any suggestions to help with this?

If you go lower when you're low and higher when you're high, it's likely that you are looking where you want to go and your body is following your head. If you are below something and look above you, you tend to arch more. When you look down you tend to dearch.

Try doing some drills where you go out with just one person and going high/low on them the whole dive. When you move your head move _just_ your head. If you have trouble with this, turn 90 degrees to him and do the same thing. That way your body won't be as likely to follow your head (if it does you'll turn.)

[LilSal 0]

Yeah all my 2 way and 4 way have been with an instructor so far. And some of them have been video'd.
Im just getting really frustrated with myself because i went through all my 2 way B-rels with no problems, they rocked, and now that i get to the 4 ways i cant do it!!
It might be because i dont want to stuff up the jump for everyone else, or i might have been having a bad day!! I dont know, i just wish i could do the 4 ways as well as the 2 ways!!
Should there be any difference? I mean beside there being 3 other people instead of one?

[damion75 0]

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It might be because i dont want to stuff up the jump for everyone else

I dont want to get to in depth on this because I am not exactly a jedi myself (yet) and BillVon has/will give you far better info.

What I think I can safely do is tell you that my primary problem when learning, and still when jumping with new people, is getting nervous / worried about it. It is inevitable unfortunately. BUT I do my best flying when I just relax and let the muscle memory etc just do its thing. So try and relax a little and enjoy it! The easiest thing to sya, and a very hard thing to do.

This is just what works for me and I maybe unusual so if BillVon contradicts me here then take his advice!!

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Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[LilSal 0]

Yeah im going to do some more 2ways before i do my 4 ways again!! I was told the same thing by my instructor about the following your head!! That was my problem in the first one, but the second one i did a really good slow fall, But when i finally got my stuff together it was break off time!!
I think i will try the relaxing thing, cos that worked for me aswell, in my 2 ways,
But 4 ways are so much more stressfull, and it feels like there is so much to think about

[Albatross 0]

As always Bill has some great points about your bodys response to looking. For a 4-way vs a 2 way there are a few more things to consider. 1. becasue there are 3 other people you must do more of the work to stay level cause the other 3 are already making adjustments to stay constant. Also the formations have different fall rates. Due to the amount of space between people the formations have different fall rates. Also people tend not to make that first adjustment soon enough or hard enough. Remeber if the 3 are doing fine it is really your job to match them where in a 2 way both people are helping.
Good luck FLY well

Chris

[LilSal 0]

Yeah that makes sense. Do you know how many people have trouble with the 4 ways? I have spoken to some people at my DZ and they all seem to get it pretty much straight away!!
On the 2 ways my instructor kept a steady fall rate and i had to match it. I had no problem with that, so i guess if i react quicker when im starting to pop up or sink out, it will help?
Should i think about that first?
Most of the time im to busy thinking about the grips i need to get to.

[Mad47 0]

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Most of the time im to busy thinking about the grips i need to get to.

I have nothing to add to Bill's advice on fall rate, so I
will just comment this. The last thing you should think about is grips. Chasing grips is a very common problem. Most of the people who learn FS do chase grips in the beginning and even some very good skydivers who compete in advanced 4-way do it from time to time. Learn not to think about grips from the only beginning of your skydiving carrier. Instead of looking at the grips, reaching and chasing, try to maintain the visual contact with other people and think about putting your body in a right place in the sky because if you and your partners are in the right place, THE GRIPS WILL BE THERE. In contrast, if you are not in the right place, reaching for the grips will not help.

[LilSal 0]

Yeah ive learnt my lesson about reaching for grips. I found my self in the right spot for the first time, but just a bit high, and not thinking i reached down for the grips.
I went right over the top of the others
So i wont be doing that again.
Next time i will keep eye contact so i can match the fall rate and get in the right spot and then look for the grips!!
Im determined to get it right tho, next time i go up ill think more before i do silly things that stuff up the jump.
Practice practice practice!!!!

[Albatross 0]

At this point you should fly the slot. Get your center point to the right spot then think about grips. Grips are reward for a job well done. If you fly there they will be right there beggin you to take them. If you reach you will suffer

Chris

[Mad47 0]

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I found my self in the right spot for the first time, but just a bit high, and not thinking i reached down for the grips.
I went right over the top of the others

Again a very comoon error
Alway dock on level and always stop completely before you dock

Levels. Proximity. Grips.

[Red_Skydiver 0]

You have no problem with 2ways but you do on 4ways. Have you tried 3ways? It might help bridge the gap.

I've always been told to anticipate the formation slowing up when there are others taking grips and to react before you notice you are sinking out.

Apart from theat just keep practising (or is it practicing?)

[aykay 0]

Yeah sal the vid was pretty funny

[LilSal 0]

Levels. Proximity. Grips.


Thats seems like a good way to think about it!!
Then you have words to say, and you no what order to do the things

I might try 3 ways aswell, maybe that WILL help with getting used to there being more people in the sky.

Oh well what ever i do, its all fun. I dont REALLY mind people laughing at me when i get to the ground

[Mad47 0]

yup ... the way how I think about it (and the way how I have been taught by my mentors) - 80% of what we do in free fall is mental. Establishing of right and, what is very important, positive mental patterns in your mind from the only beginning will help you to progress faster and better understand the basics. Most of the mistakes we make are very simple mistakes, they happen when we do not follow the simple principles applied to every dive. Do not tell yourself what no to do. Try to focus on positive aspects and keep the simple principles in mind and you will soon become a very good skydiver

[LilSal 0]

Thats so true, the same priciples are there for springboard diving aswell, which i also do.

I do remember saying to myself on my last 4 way, 'dont do that again', and thins like that.
Next time it will be this is what im going to do.

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[freefaller2001 0]

my first impressions are - good on you for giving 4 ways a go already!!
I cannot recommend wind tunnel time enough (I've been lucky to do some with John Hamilton) - a few sessions of tunnel will dramatically help you out.

Don't get frustrated, have a laugh you're falling out of a plane!! You will fly in a better position if relaxed anyway. Fall rates are usually the most common 4 way issues - it is/was for me, I'm quite heavy and used to have a fairly tight suit, but now I have a slightly baggy suit and better body position and my range of slow/fast fall has dramatically increased.

Just be patient and have fun learning, and enjoy the jumps - it'll suddenly click, and then the fun increases.... Just remember to geek at the camera!

[LilSal 0]

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my first impressions are - good on you for giving 4 ways a go already!!

ThanksI would so get wind tunnel time, but there isnt one
I do have fun on every jump even when i dont meet the aims of it!!!
Ive had awsome instructors helping me so i know ill get it!!!

[LukeOliver 0]

A long time ago, a thread long forgotten...

I saw LilSal last year, we'd finished up a week with her doing pretty much whatever we wanted flat flying. All over it. 4s, 8s, whatever. She's all over it. Just took a little practice.

Treasured in my camera and my head is some weeks later, a very smooth head up dock after a lovely head down exit. I don't think she understood how much I'm learning whilst we held hands briefly at 240kmh.

It's all possible. Don't quit whilst you're down.

L.