Wind Tunnels’ Long Term Effect on Competition

[Zoltan 0]

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it is actually a lot of fun

No question about it :) but it is still not skydiving. You might use the same muscles, you fly... but you do not jump out, you do not track away and you do not pull and you do not land and youdo not pack :)

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You are the organic, pesticide-free root vegetable of skydiving.

yeah :) at least that is the ideology behind the fact that I live too far from a wind tunel.
There is a skydiving enviroment given to me...the DZ, the Twin Otter, the folks and everything... and I am happy that i try to reach the maximum with these things...

Yes I know that if i would sell all my belongings and give up my job and move to the states to live in a DZ with all the other guys form our team and do packjob, camerajob and tandem for living and burn all my money in windtunel that our team might end up with 18-20 point avarage within few years :)

This is possible... and we all draw teh border we all have priorities and for me the limit i set for myself is to say 'no' for windtunel. :)

z

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]And I would rather spend that money doing actual jumps.... but to each his own...[/QUOTE]

hehe, point taken, the reality is that I will never have enough money for an hour in the tunnel bc I keep spending it on jump tickets.

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[skyminxx 0]

My team just did a tunnel camp in Florida and we were grinning for the full two days. Even after the last hour and a half when we were doing four way and needed to be poured out at the end. (tunnel junkies, that we are..or would be if we had more money :)

We trained (the real kind..in the sky ;) together this weekend and you can really notice how much quieter we are in the air together. The change in our flying wont win us a medal at Nationals, but it's certainly made a big difference.

We love to learn and made the commitment at the start of the season to do some tunnel time with some great coaches. (Thanks to Brian Johnson and Scott Franklin..you guys rock) We even got the opportunity to buy some play time for our own coach Todd Hoover, to thank him for all his hard work.

I can see where some may say that its not pure skydiving training, but to my team, its almost as valuable as the hours of ground work we have put in on bad weather days. Each to their own I guess.

Portia
www.foxforce4.com

You are led through your lifetime by the inner learning creature, the playful spiritual being that is your real self.-Richard Bach

[Swoopdiva 0]

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and youdo not pack :)

Amen to that

I am not saying tunnel is better than skydiving, just different, and equally fun, if you have an open mind... Hey, it even has its own 'culture', just like a dz...The lovely Riande Continental with its special damp walls and roaches...Walgreens for last-minute video tapes and pain-killers...earplugs that look like sweeties...the after-tunnel walk of stiffness...Karaoki in the Black Angus...ahhh...pure class

[Zoltan 0]

Call me jerk but I love packing... it is the part of the fun... I love hanging under the parachute and enjoying the view of the city. I love to be alone and I love to scream my favorite rock song (noone complains that I'm not a Pavarotti) on 2000 ft.
and I admit that windtuneling is fun... yeah.. it is.
I have a lot friends scubadiving... it is fun as well. Other folks are fishing on the weekends.. they say it is fun... so I beleive :)
But whatever you do in the windtunel it is not going to be skydive and it is not a DZ :) even if it makes you a 4way god and hopefuly it makes :) since it is not a cheap toy

[Swoopdiva 0]

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since it is not a cheap toy

But for 4way it is considerably cheaper than skydiving...

[Zoltan 0]

yes, considerable but you know that every team has a season budjet...and it is a decision what to do with this budjet. Jump or windtunel... i prefer jumping. Since I can notgo just for an hour wind tunel session to Orlando... For us it would be a bit bigger project and it would burn up a significant percentage of our yearly budjet.

z

[Swoopdiva 0]

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Since I can notgo just for an hour wind tunel session to Orlando... For us it would be a bit bigger project and it would burn up a significant percentage of our yearly budjet.

Entirely your call, but the option is there for everyone if they want it. Even if you have to fly from another country to the tunnel for an hour, it still works out quite cost-effective for a team.

1 hour = $600/ 4 = $150, + flight $400 (?) = $550 for 60 jumps equivalent (some say it's actually more than 60 jumps since there's no exit or track to 'waste freefall'.)

If you pay $18 for jumps at your home dz, $18 x 60 = $1,080. Or, more a realistic price, 21 Euros = $23.7 = $1,422

$550 vs $1,422.

Even if your flight is more than $400 it's still a good deal. But don't forget, there is a tunnel in France which is meant to be pretty good, and much closer to you.

I don't think using the economic argument is especially relevant. Maybe the tunnel is the poor man's skydiving after all?

ps:

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I love hanging under the parachute and enjoying the view of the city.

So do I....We spend much more time jumping than we do in the tunnel. But I still recognise the value of the tunnel as a part of, not a threat to, our sport.

[kallend 1,621]

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Call me jerk but I love packing... it is the part of the fun...

You can pack for me anytime, and I'll only charge you $5 for the fun you'll get doing it

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,621]

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... since there's no exit or track to 'waste freefall'.)

Why not run the whole competition in a tunnel and not skydive at all, since all the stuff you can't do in a tunnel is "waste"?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Liffy 0]

Quade--just learned who you are and will look for you at Perris.

Just wanted to comment, without offending anyone--'cuase I don't want to do that---that I am newly arrived at Perris and do not understand what you mean when you say that the "Primary Coaches" at Dan BC's upcoming tunnel event coach at a "very very high level."

To me a very very high level is Joey Jones, Doug Park, Shannon Pilcher, Dave van Greuningen, and of course the most awesome one...Thomas Hughes.

No offense to anyone, because Perris is a different place, but there has been no "high level" coaching going on---and the ONLY one who has done any 4-way coaching from what I hear is Dave. I guess Dan BC will coach which is cool.

Honestly though, and again, I mean absolutely no disrespect, 'cause I'm just a 200 jump spaz--the e-mails are flying all over cyberspace about who will really buy into some of the coaches Dan has set up.

I guess it will take awhile but eventually people will figure out the difference between a coach with literally hundreds and hundreds of hours coaching 17-average teams in the tunnel and on the ground, and the "very very high level" coaching you describe.

Also, I think you should probably do some more RW before you get into making comments about the quality of 4-way coaching, dude.

Sorry if I sound bold, I am meek in real life and I hope I haven't spoiled my chances of getting on a good skydive by speaking my mind.

Peace out.


MIT was hard. Life is easy!

[quade 3]

I don't even know where to begin to respond to this.

Maybe when you look me up at Perris I can take you over and introduce you to Dan BC and he can explain.

Trust me, while all of the folks you've mentioned are great coaches, there's more to life than what you've been exposed to so far.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Zoltan 0]

Deal :) but for 5$ I would pack so that i will have fun watching your openings :) Is it OK with you? :)

z

[Swoopdiva 0]

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since all the stuff you can't do in a tunnel is "waste"?

Ahem...the use of the inverted commas in my comment was meant to imply irony. Of course no part of any skydive is a 'waste'. But some people do take the view that you get concentrated 4way practice in the tunnel for this specific reason, especially if you're doing 2 minute slots or higher...you are actually turning the moves for more of the 60 seconds in the tunnel than you generally are in the 60 seconds after you leave the aircraft. Which is why some people take the view that 2 minutes in the tunnel gives you more 4way 'practice' than 2 skydives. Although there is no exit practice of course, which has its own issues.

[Zoltan 0]

Your calculation is a bit wrong.. first the flight costs about 700$+100$ for visa (which is not 100% surely given after 911) the hotel has a cost let's say 300$ and in the states the public transportation and the 'concept of distance less then 10 miles' are unknown the car rent is an other 100$

So a two weeks trip to Orlando is at least 1200$

At home I live in my own place and go with bus or bike to the DZ without visa :)

I calculated many times and the result is that wind tunel is mor or less costs the same as jumps under a limit (like 10+ hours or so) and the only technical benefit of windtunel is that there is no 60 second timeframe so the training is more intensive.

and about the 600$/4 :) you know it does not work this way, that a team just jumps in to the wind tunel... before team training all the members should take some individual trainings in pair with a coach :)

Wind tunel is cost effective if you realy do it a lot... and if you do it a lot thenit costs more... maybe more then you were planing to jump :)

z

[Swoopdiva 0]

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Your calculation is a bit wrong.. first the flight costs about 700$+100$ for visa (which is not 100% surely given after 911) the hotel has a cost let's say 300$ and in the states the public transportation and the 'concept of distance less then 10 miles' are unknown the car rent is an other 100$

So a two weeks trip to Orlando is at least 1200$

Ok...but there is a tunnel in Paris, and even if you did go to Orlando, the hotel next to the tunnel is $40 a night for a room for 4, if you don't mind sharing a bed ;). You could do your hour in there in a weekend, it wouldn't take 2 weeks, and you don't need a car if you stay on I-Drive. Bummer about the visa though, I didn't realise any Europeans needed one now. I can only speak from my own experience re flights from Europe but have found flights from the uk for $440 at discount times.

As I say, it's your call, tunnel will never replace skydiving, but you do seem quite negative about the tunnel per se and I don't really understand why. I hope you enjoy your skydives! :)

[jlpskydive 0]

To take a line from Days of Thunder “He’s fine out there on his own let’s see how he does in a crowd” If it was just skydiving everyone would do it!! There is so much more to competition than free fall it’s amazing. My very first competition Craig Gerard turns to me in round 3 and says hey man check my pin (120 jumps at this point). My next thought was ‘What was the skydive’. The exit, the ground hurdling at 120 mph, the other teams, the chance of a mal, injury, landing, gear fear, etc…. they all add up!! Do I love the tunnel OH Yea!!! It can make an average jumper into a great one quickly if the ability is there. It’s just another tool that the Champions utilize. Would the Knights or Airspeed be where they are without it? I don’t know. Yea it helps, can it replace? I don’t think so. Some other things to consider, experience when things go bad. The tunnel is training under the best possible conditions. We are dealing with humans here and things aren’t always perfect winds, spot, things that play with the mind, group out behind you that comes through your formation, we all jump and we know these things happen. The tunnel is now part of it, but it can’t replace it? It’s Skydiving.

Stupid Sky Monkey

Just got humbled in the tunnel.

[Zoltan 0]

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you do seem quite negative about the tunnel

It seems i could not make myself clear :) I have no negative feelings about the windtunel.. I just do not appreciate it more then it is. It is a tool to develop freefall skills without the involvement of airplane, exit procedure, parachute flying and landing and packing. For about the same price as skydive since i can not do it at my home DZ.
On the financial issue i have not even mentioned that jumping on weekend or everyday afternoon I do not need to take a vacation... for wind tuneling I need.. and since even in Finland we have limited payed vacation days :) so add to the cost a software engineer's weekly salary as a minus :)

I'm not negative but I just do not hype it. It has its benefits and costs and I do not think it is good idea to hide the costs and hype the benefits.

[DanBC 0]

Hi Liffy,

There is much more to coaching than a coaches personal competition accomplishments. Many great coaches in various sports have never professionally played in the sport that they have had great success coaching. On the other hand, there are many great athletes who could not coach as well as a preschool gym teacher.

I have personally worked with and trained the coaches who will be involved at our camps. There are several teams who have seen great results in their skydiving after training with them. During our camps each group would have the primary coach who is giving them 100% of their time. In addition I will be overseeing all the groups and offering information in both the prejump preparation and debriefing.

The only point you made that is worth questioning would be have they coached teams "at a high level." We do not anticipate that many teams at a high level (above a 16 average) to register for our camps. More often those teams would come for their own training camps. When they do we set them up with Chris Irwin, David VG, myself or another member of Airspeed as a coach.

For the other 99% of skydivers that have never averaged over a 16 in competition, our camps will be ideal. They will have the chance to work on personal body flying skills in the tunnel and to then apply them to what will undoubtedly be some of the best 4-way jumps they have ever made.

[rehmwa 2]

BC - glad to see you talking to this crowd and pumping the new tunnel in Perris.

I jumped in Coolidge when you were on Coolidge Fource (Force?) and all you guys (Specially Jim H) helped us newer people tons.

I'm looking forward to the new tunnel and the teaching styles at those camps.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mjasantos 0]

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I was talking to Jack Jefferies about the tunnel and he said that after a point he stopped enjoying training in the tunnel. He found that it began reinforcing bad habbits due to the differences between the tunnel and the sky. Obviously it will take a while to get to that point, but I think that that's a worthwhile consideration when considering training in the tunnel. It should be balanced with freefall.

Hi,

My italian friend Igorsky called my attention to this post....

I've contacted JJ about it and this was his reply:

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"Not surprisingly, I do not remember the conversation you saw posted. However, the person who does remember it certainly misunderstood me to some degree.

1) I've always enjoyed training in the tunnel. The only caveat is that, for me, it never replaced freefall but it did supplemented it well.

2) No idea what is meant about reinforcing bad habits, this was not my experience.

3) It most certainly should be balanced with freefall and the further progressed a person's skydiving is the more important actual freefall becomes.

So, I hope this sets the record straight. It was certainly a misunderstanding largely due to my poor communication skills, I'm sure.

Jack

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Blue Skies!

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Mario Santos
Portugal

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[NeedToJump 0]

I guess I midunderstood him then. I thought he had been saying something that at the top level of competition that there was a point of diminishing returns on the tunnel, but as I said, guess I midunderstood. I'll see him this weekend and ask. Sorry about any confusion.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[drewboo 0]

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... since there's no exit or track to 'waste freefall'.)

Why not run the whole competition in a tunnel and not skydive at all, since all the stuff you can't do in a tunnel is "waste"?

I don't doubt that one day there will be the Wind Tunnel Nationals.....could even be shown on tv..live...might make the Olympics oneday....true skydiving may eventually be replaced due to economics...weather...danger..etc.

[quade 3]

The Nationals draws little media attention.

A "Wind Tunnel Nationals" would draw even less.

Way too esoteric. People might be able to see it "better" (on TV) but that's not the be all and end all of TV sports. It has to be something people can relate to and four people floating in a wind tunnel turning points would make no sense whatsoever to the average person. Also, remove the danger of the actual skydive and very few people would see the difference between 4-way and square dancing.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[drewboo 0]

OK ..I partially agree...but how about a wind tunnel nations....just as that. A californis team or two challenge a east coast team or two to such a competition...as a lark so to speak...and it slowly grows from there...i could definetly see THIS happening.