Wind Tunnels’ Long Term Effect on Competition

[Dogwap 0]

I’m interested in your opinions regarding the long-term effects of wind tunnels on formation skydiving competition and training. I’m specifically interested in the following questions:

Will teams make fewer jumps, in favor of wind tunnel time?

If so, is this a good or bad thing for the sport?

Here’s my take…

The Orlando tunnel costs about $600 an hour to rent. Split this by four jumpers and you get 60 jumps worth of freefall time for $150. That comes out to about $2.50 per sim-jump.

I have no idea whether one hour of tunnel time is more or less valuable than 60 team jumps. But anyway you look at it, $2.50 for 60 seconds of training is pretty cheap.

As a result, I think that most teams will allocate a significant portion of their training budget to the tunnel. Consequently, teams will get better by making fewer jumps. Is this a good thing? For teams with access to a tunnel, there’s no doubt about it. But is tunnel training good for the sport as a whole? If because of the tunnel, teams make fewer jumps per year, I’m not so sure it is.

And should you abandon all hope of a gold medal if your DZ only has airplanes? That would suck.

Another interesting aspect of tunnel training is that it is vastly more time efficient than skydiving. Again, the math tells the story: a fulltime team with an aggressive training schedule makes 50 jumps per week. This yields about 3,000 seconds of training time. A second team with fulltime jobs does an hour of tunnel work, five nights a week and then makes six jumps each Saturday. This yields 18,360 seconds of training time per week. The price is about the same either way. Which team progresses faster? I’d say the tunnel team would.

Talk about accelerated freefall. It’s easy to imagine national champions with only a few years in the sport. But what about all those guys who’ve dedicated their lives to competition skydiving? Trounced by Team SkyVentures? Just doesn’t seem right to me. But hey, it’s all about progress. Someone has to pave the road to the future. Might as well be the dinosaurs. Right?

Ok, so the sympathy angle won’t fly. But consider what happened to a similar sport, freestyle ski jumping. Back when freestyle skiing was in it’s heyday, the best jumpers were also the best skiers. This was because you practiced jumping while you were skiing. But today, many of the best freestyle ski jumpers are gymnasts with very little time on the slopes. Some of them barely know how to ski. As a result, the sport has experienced a huge decline in participation among skiers.

I would hate to see formation skydiving fall into disrepute because tunnel junkies dominate the Nationals. Never happen? Maybe not.

Still, the proliferation of wind tunnels brings up some interesting questions about the future of formation skydiving.

So, what do you think?

By the way, boycotting the tunnel to save our sport isn’t in my future. I‘m not exactly one of those, “It’s not winning or losing, but how you play the game.” types.

87 days and counting.

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To those who say it’s a small world, let me tell you,
I’ve seen the world, and it’s only getting bigger.

[quade 3]

There are some things you can practice in the tunnel and there are some things you can't.

For instance -- exits.

I've seen teams already that have placed a very heavy emphasis on tunnel training to the detriment of their exit training. Other teams have now begun to do (or at least have talked about) exit drills -- booking several days worth of "launch-n-pops" if you will -- lower altitudes, hop-n-pop pricing, yada yada.

I've heard of one team that tried to practice exits over a swimming pool. Don't really know how that went or exactly how that relates to real life, but was an interesting idea.

I think that as long as the IPC/USPA keeps the exit timing the way it is now, teams will have to jump from planes for at least some of their training. There was a movement awhile back to start the timing something like 5 or 7 seconds after exit, but fortunately that did get shot down -- otherwise you'd be correct and teams without tunnels would be really screwed.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[NeedToJump 0]

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Talk about accelerated freefall. It’s easy to imagine national champions with only a few years in the sport.

Thomas Hughes joined Sebastian XL with about 400 jumps and a few thousand hours of tunnel time. I'm not sure how long he was jumping for, but my guess would be somewhere in the 1 year range. He is a perfect example of a national champion with only a few years in the sport. If you look at him in the air (and especially in the tunnel) he is amazing. The tunnel time definitely paid off.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[Dogwap 0]

My point isn’t that tunnels will replace airplanes. Exits and the general energy rush of freefall can’t be replicated in the tunnel. But teams with access will have a huge advantage as a result of the cost and time savings.

I’m thinking more about the team that used to spend every weekend at the DZ to make 300 jumps a year. Next year they may only make 75 or 100 jumps and spend the rest of their money at the tunnel. That’s a lot less airport time and can’t be good for the DZ.

On the other hand, training in the tunnel may help weekend teams compete with the fulltime guys, assuming they have more money than time.

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To those who say it’s a small world, let me tell you,
I’ve seen the world, and it’s only getting bigger.

[quade 3]

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I’m thinking more about the team that used to spend every weekend at the DZ to make 300 jumps a year. Next year they may only make 75 or 100 jumps and spend the rest of their money at the tunnel. That’s a lot less airport time and can’t be good for the DZ.

But that's exactly my point as well!

If the team only makes 75 or 100 actual jumps in a year, their exits are going to suck compared to teams that do more actual airplane jumps. In the "Advanced Class" there are 16 different random exits and 22 different block exits. Even if a team did 114 exits, they'd only be able to do each one 3 times -- not exactly a lot of training is it?

Exits in 4-way are -critical-. Funnel an exit and you've probably knocked yourself out of the running.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[NeedToJump 0]

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In the "Advanced Class" there are 16 different random exits and 22 different block exits.

Plus there's B slot exits (depending on the team's continuity plan) and working on the hill. I love the tunnel but it definitely is only a tool and not a replacement for the real thing.
I was talking to Jack Jefferies about the tunnel and he said that after a point he stopped enjoying training in the tunnel. He found that it began reinforcing bad habbits due to the differences between the tunnel and the sky. Obviously it will take a while to get to that point, but I think that that's a worthwhile consideration when considering training in the tunnel. It should be balanced with freefall.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[quade 3]

I think the ideal situation is going to be a real training tunnel at a drop zone -- like Perris in the very near future.

Dan BC is putting together some interesting training ideas that I've only heard of in passing. I don't think anything is locked down yet, but it sounds very interesting.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[NeedToJump 0]

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Dan BC is putting together some interesting training ideas that I've only heard of in passing. I don't think anything is locked down yet, but it sounds very interesting.

What sort of ideas? Anything you can share?
The most ideal training situation I can think of goes along with what you said of having a real tunnel at a dropzone. Then you could do your dirt dive, do the actual dive in the air, debrief it and then lastly go in the tunnel to work out anything before going up for the next dive. You could also get into the tunnel on weather days or at night without needing to leave the dz.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[ltdiver 3]

*** Then you could do your dirt dive, do the actual dive in the air, debrief it and then lastly go in the tunnel to work out anything before going up for the next dive.

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No, it goes like this.......dirt dives no longer require creepers! You do 'tunnel "dirt" dives' before each jump, go jump, then debrief it with your cameraflyer's video! Repeat!

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

• Quote

[quade 3]

As I said, I've only heard of them in passing and I'm certain I don't have complete information nor would I ever want to pretend I could fill in the blanks of Dan BC's methods.

It is fairly safe to say that it would use both the tunnel and aircraft, but that's about as much as I feel comfortable in saying.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Dogwap 0]

I think we all agree that it will be fun to have a wind tunnel on the DZ, and that without exit practice you can’t expect to ever get very good. Furthermore, I’d be interested to read a detailed post regarding how best to allocate your time and money between the tunnel and the otter.

But in this thread, I’m more interested in the tunnel’s impact on the sport as a whole.

For most people, resources are limited. In the past, skydivers spent all their cash on jump tickets. But next year there may be a tunnel in your neighborhood. So if you spend money for tunnel time, there will be less money for jumps. Basic budgeting.

How many fewer jumps you make is not important.

The point is that all but the richest teams will make fewer jumps if they have a tunnel in their backyard.

And my question is, what are the costs to the sport of introducing artificial skydiving as a major training aid?

Here’s an analogy for ya. A lake in Northern California has a problem. The mud suckers are eating all the trout eggs. The local fishermen are pissed. So they introduce a few dozen pike to the pond. Initially, everything looks good. The pike eat the mud suckers and the trout begin to make a comeback. But before long, when the mud suckers are all gone the pike start to eat the trout. A year later the trout are history.

So what’s the moral? Pikes rock and trout suck ass? Maybe. Or is it, don’t fuck with Mother Nature. Who knows?

Think about it.

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To those who say it’s a small world, let me tell you,
I’ve seen the world, and it’s only getting bigger.

[kallend 1,620]

It would improve things if all exits had to be free-flown (no grips allowed). It would add a dimension that is currently missing to seqential FS events.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 3]

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It would improve things if all exits had to be free-flown (no grips allowed). It would add a dimension that is currently missing to seqential FS events.

I'm not sure it would "improve" things, that's subjective. It would make them different.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

I see it more like a calculus equation.

We have two quantities that we have to play against each other to achieve the maximum result. Actually, there are more factors involved in skydiving, but for our purposes here, let's just call it two.

So, in a simple two factor equation . . .

Let's say you are at one point along a beach. There is a ball 500 feet down the coastline and 100 feet off shore. What's the best way to get to the ball?

Enter the water where you are and swim directly to it? Probably not. You'll cover more distance faster running down the beach.

Run 500 feet down the coast and then swim to the ball? Naww, at some point the straightline distance swimming becomes insignificant compare to running the last few feet down the beach.

Heck, dogs do this!

So, at some point a person gets the maximum benefit from a little of both tunnel and actual aircraft jumps. An unbalanced training program (or fun jump program) is counter productive to obtaining maximum results.

What IS that point? I dunno! I'm not as smart as a dog!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[NeedToJump 0]

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But in this thread, I’m more interested in the tunnel’s impact on the sport as a whole.

I think the tunnels will have a great overall effect on the sport. The tunnel enables lower number jumpers (like myself) to more quickly acquire higher level skills and be able to do more. It provides for a safer, less stressful environment to learn in as there is no threat of hitting the earth at 100+ mph allowing the individual to focus more. Obviously there are still certain dangers, but the risks are not as great. The feedback in the tunnel is immediate. It also is a more spectator friendly side of the sport allowing non-skydivers to actually see some of what it is we do in the air in real time and to get an appreciation for it if they decide to go in the tunnel as well. I also feel that the tunnels will promote a higher level of skydiving overall since it is a tool available to all levels of skydivers in most disciples (obviously you cannot practice CRW...) Plus they're just plain fun.
My opinion is that tunnels will help the sport, but I can definitely understand your points of taking business away from the dropzones and pike eating the trout I would be interested in hearing someone else's view about how the tunnels could hurt the sport.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[RebelMike 0]

Here is Dan's plan.


PERFORMANCE PLUS
EVENTS, COACHING, ORGANIZING
Perris Valley, California

One thing we all love about skydiving is the constant challenge our sport presents. Whether we are working through the AFF program or training for the World Meet, much of our enjoyment and success comes from the opportunity we have to improve our flying skills on each and every jump. Few things can match the excitement of a student?s first good 360 and redock, a 4-way team?s first successful vertical transitions, or a young free flyer?s first headdown approach. In every discipline and at all levels, skydiving repeatedly offers these opportunities to learn and grow. You can always improve, and the more you do, the more fun you have.

At Perris Valley we have a unique opportunity to advance our flying skills, and the fun factor associated with that, at an unprecedented rate. We have excellent facilities and beautiful weather. We have a fleet of fast, comfortable turbine aircraft. We have experts in every specific skydiving discipline. And now we have a vertical wind tunnel on site. PERRIS PERFORMANCE PLUS was formed as a way to offer Camps, Programs and Services that best combine and utilize all the assets and tools that Perris has to offer.

In the coming months we will have various events that span across all freefall and canopy flight disciplines. In addition to our scheduled events we have coaches and organizers available to work with individuals, teams or groups, and to make your experience at Perris one of the most rewarding of your skydiving career.

If you are coming to Perris alone for a day, bringing a group on vacation or training with your team, please contact us and let us show you just how much fun it can be when you have a chance to push your flying skills to an entirely new level.

Performance Plus 4-Way / Tunnel Camp??..November 19 - 23.


Flying one on one with a coach in the tunnel is unquestionably the most efficient way to train personal body flight skills. Making 4-Way jumps with a coach in the air to set the pace, fall rate and a high degree of control, is without a doubt the most effective way to perfect 4-way disciplines, habits and techniques. At these new five day camps you will be able to do it all.

Bring your friends or come alone. This camp is designed to accommodate individuals, groups of 2 or 3, or complete 4-way teams.

Individuals or Groups of 2 or 3.
Very often we have friends that we like to jump with and might want to do a team with but we don?t have four. Camps like these have proven to be a great place to meet others that have the same passion for skydiving that we do. We will combine you with other participants of similar skill and experience. One of our Performance Plus coaches will complete your "team" as your fourth member. You will do some of the best 4-Way of your life, make new friends and may even end up with a team for the Nationals.

4-Way Teams - This is an ideal training opportunity for you. During the camp your coach will rotate through each individual?s slot. You will learn at a greatly accelerated pace with the coach in the air demonstrating and showing you what you need to do as opposed to only teaching from the ground. The cost for teams is the same as for 3 individuals.

Areas of attention at our camps will include:
-Personal Body Flight Skills
-State of the art 4-Way flying skills, habits and techniques.
-Proven systems for dirt diving and debriefing.
-How to form, and keep a team together.
-Visualization techniques.

Coaching Staff
Head Coach - Dan Brodsky-Chenfeld. Dan will be working with each group, assisting with dirt dives, debriefs and presenting seminar information. He will be an extra set of eyes looking in at all times and is likely to slip in for a jump here and there.

Primary Coaches - In addition to Dan each group will have it?s own Primary Coach. These coaches are a team of World Class Competitors that have worked extensively with Dan and Airspeed. They have each had great success coaching in the air and tunnel.
Primary Coaches - Christopher Irwin, Pat McGowan, Eric Gin, Andy Delk, Kai Wolf, Mike Kinswater.

Included in the camp:
-One hour of one on one coached tunnel time. (extra time is available)
-24 4-Way jumps with a coach and video on every jump. (additional jumps available)
-A video of all you jumps and tunnel training.
-Breakfast each day.
-Camp dinner.
-Camp notebook.
-Cost is $2075

*Space at this camp is limited to 18 slots. People coming as groups of more than one will have priority.*

FFI. Contact Dan Brodsky-Chenfeld at:
[email protected]

[RebelMike 0]

forgot to give the link. http://www.skydiveperris.com

You can register for the camp here.

[Liffy 0]

I have been able to improve my skills remarkably over a short period of time by getting coaching in the wind tunnel. I have also spent a lot of time watching different coaches and their different styles etc. Wow, it's incredible to see what a couple hundred hours of tunnel time can produce.

I see that Dan BC states that all of his coaches have proven experience in the tunnel and in the sky. I have only ever seen Christoper Irwin in the tunnel and, having newly arrived at Perris, I inquired and learned that the rest of the "Primary" coaches at this camp have less than 10 hours of tunnel time. One of them has only about 3 hours.

This camp sounds like a lot of fun, but honestly if I were going to pay that kind of money for coaching I would ask for more tunnel experience. I do think a hybrid experience is way cool though.

I heard a rumor the whole PD Blue team will be jumping at Perris and coaching at the new Perris tunnel. Has anyone heard about this? Those guys rock and they are all super nice.



"MIT was easy. Life is hard."

[quade 3]

David --

All of these folks are more than qualified to, and already do, coach at a very, very high level. Each of them has his own personality, strengths and style -- just like every other coach on the planet. I have no idea of their exact tunnel coaching methods they have planned, but rest assured they include drills and skills to bring you up to whatever level of skydiver you're capable of becoming.

Additionally, some of the folks you know from the previous PD Blue team, such as David Van Greuningen, will be based at Perris as well. They will, in all likelihood, be setting up their own separate coaching program that probably focuses more on the experience and drills you're used to at the Orlando tunnel -- although I'm certain they'll modify it slightly to accommodate some jumping as well.

I think it's far, far too early to say that either method will be "better", but almost assuredly "different".

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[The111 0]

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I see it more like a calculus equation.

We have two quantities that we have to play against each other to achieve the maximum result. Actually, there are more factors involved in skydiving, but for our purposes here, let's just call it two.

So, in a simple two factor equation . . .

Let's say you are at one point along a beach. There is a ball 500 feet down the coastline and 100 feet off shore. What's the best way to get to the ball?

Enter the water where you are and swim directly to it? Probably not. You'll cover more distance faster running down the beach.

Run 500 feet down the coast and then swim to the ball? Naww, at some point the straightline distance swimming becomes insignificant compare to running the last few feet down the beach.

Heck, dogs do this!

So, at some point a person gets the maximum benefit from a little of both tunnel and actual aircraft jumps. An unbalanced training program (or fun jump program) is counter productive to obtaining maximum results.

What IS that point? I dunno! I'm not as smart as a dog!

That is AWESOME, quade. (I'm a math nerd...)

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Ron 7]

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If the team only makes 75 or 100 actual jumps in a year, their exits are going to suck compared to teams
that do more actual airplane jumps.

My team last year (Frost) did 75-80 jumps, and around 10 hrs of tunnel.

We did a 14.9 with an alternate for the last two rounds which brought our average down. We tied the GK Black team in one round, and Airspeed Zulu in two rounds.

The team have a few things going for it....Three of us had been together before 98 Nationals, and are best friends. And Kurt Gaebel has MASSIVE amounts of experience and skill.

But the largest factor was the tunnel.

How did 4 guys with full time jobs manage to compete against 2 full time teams?

Tunnel.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[quade 3]

Like they say at the bottom of the gas milage claims . . . your actual milage may vary.

However, not to put too fine a point on things and forgive me for stating the obvious (and possibly pouring salt into old wounds), but a 14.9 average isn't really threatening a 21.8 -- is it?

Clearly your team belongs in the Open Class (even according to my rather odd mathematical standards).

But to the subject at hand though, the ONLY reason your team did so well was because of its vast amount of experience. You guys had years of previous exit practice. And while you may have had only 75-80 jumps together as a team last season, I have a feeling that most of you did far more than that number of 4-way jumps.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Ron 7]

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However, not to put too fine a point on things and forgive me for stating the obvious (and possibly pouring
salt into old wounds), but a 14.9 average isn't really threatening a 21.8 -- is it?

I wish....But we did tie several rounds with the "B" teams. Which one team had a world champ on it. And both teams jobs are to skydive. We had full time jobs and payed for everything. (OK we did get rigs and helmets).

We were no threat to the BIG boys, unless they happened to trip on us on exit. But we still did well with very few jumps.

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Clearly your team belongs in the Open Class (even according to my rather odd mathematical standards).

Yet somehow David Van G, Chris Irwin, ect are ADVANCED???? (Sorry carryover from another argument).

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But to the subject at hand though, the ONLY reason your team did so well was because of its vast amount
of experience.

your making me blush...And you do great camera work!

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And while you may have had only 75-80 jumps
together as a team last season, I have a feeling that most of you did far more than that number of 4-way
jumps.

Over the years...yes. But I had not done above a 12.6 before this year, and that was as an inside center. Frost had not jumped together since 99.

The list of great jumpers that have come from tunnels is growing more and more.

I don't think that the tunnel can replace jumps....But it dollar for dollar is much better.

Any team I do will use massive amounts of tunnel.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[karlm 0]

I don't belive there is any real debate about whether it changes the way we skydive on a competitive level, and yes maybe some "hot shot" young team will come and beat the "old dogs", but as long as you skydive to the best of your ability and acheive the goals (or some of them) that you have set out.

I have seen first hand how a team with less than 40 jumps togehter and about 6hrs of tunnel can skydive beyond the expectations of many, the tunnel is the way people will train, it does not exclude skydiving out of planes as there are the things already mentioned. e.g. Exits, Hill work, competition experiance.

My team has done about 200 jumps togehter and two of us have done about 3hrs of tunnel, and I can see the differance in the team already.

You will find those who have not experienced the benifits of tunnel will always be sceptical, but the proof is in the pudding.

I would encourage anybody who is serious about competitive 4-Way to do tunnel time, either with your whole team (as this is an advantage) or seperate with a good coach, you will learn so much and become a better skydiver for it.



If in doubt whip it out

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

[Swoopdiva 0]

Tunnel is a great complement to freefall, but it is not actually the same - walls make a difference, particularly in specific blocks and long formations. Also the mesh affects recovery time from a poor block move.

I believe used in conjunction with 'real' freefall, the tunnels will vastly improve 4way capabilities; we will start to see what the human body is really capable of in an airflow. Start to think of wee kiddies brought up in the tunnel, turning a 15 avg by age 12 or whatever (and we will see this, at least), and it seems obvious that the eventual affect on the sport will be huge.

I imagine it will evolve into a separate sport in time. There will doubtless be some people happy to fly in a tunnel, but who would never consider jumping out of a plane, and, as already discussed, there are practical differences between the two. Nevertheless, the tunnel will also open up the sport of skydiving to a wider audience, once spectators begin to see what the hell it is we 'freaks' actually 'do' in the air...It makes more sense then to give skydiving a go.

It's also likely that we will see teams of teenage gymnasts ripping it up in the tunnel before too long.

Are these negatives? I don't know. But the sport has already changed massively due to the tunnel, and will continue to do so. Progress.

I think it will certainly create an even greater divide, in terms of potential achivement, between those with cash, and those without. Tunnel means we are no longer equally restricted by the number of jumps a non fulltime (or even fulltime) team can do in a year - with enough cash, spare time can be concentrated into tunneltime and the cash-rich will progress at an accelerated rate.

SD