Ron 7 #76 July 8, 2003 QuoteDoes this really piss people off?I would measure my 'success' by my team's point average and how well the team functions as 4 or 5 people, not by the shiny medals on my wall. Yep, it does piss people off. The Advanced class was created to allow the good weekend teams a place to fight like hell against each other and come home with the prize. I have been to Nationals twice...Both times in Open. 10th in 98, and 7th in 2001...The 7th ment more to me than winning Advanced would have based ont he fact we had a 14.9, and Advaced was won with a 13.6 (I think). But I find it funny that I HAD to go Open, and other teams can hire World Class jumpers and go Advanced. And the only reason they would go Advanced is to get the medal. Just seems really screwed up to me. Keep the Professional skydivers in Open. QuoteBut if a team with a player coach beat my 'Advanced' team, I really wouldn't feel too hard done by. They still had to skydive hard themselves. But you have said before that you admit that a PRO will make a team better....So doon't you think they should not be in the weekend class? QuoteIf the draw is the same I can't see a reason for any team to enter Advanced though - player coach or not. The class looks redundant to me. Well the class was created to allow the weekend teams to fight it out and have achance at some bragging rights...I think it is a good idea. Weekend teams have no chance against the teams like the GK's Airspeed Majic...ect. So give them a class that they can compete with each other. But some peoples greed to get a medal makes them hire Pro's to try and win a lower class...And to make things even more screwed up, the team that won Advanced last year HAS to go open. And you can only have ONE memeber that has an Advanced Gold on an Advanced team, but you can have 3 guys that have open Bronze if you can afford it. Makes no sense to me. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emma 0 #77 July 8, 2003 QuoteBut you have said before that you admit that a PRO will make a team better....So doon't you think they should not be in the weekend class? Yes but the other 3 might be weekenders... At the end of the day it is still 4 separate people and you can only go as fast as the weakest link on the team, not the other way round. I really don't know, sounds like a bloody nightmare to me. I do, however, think that it is up to the individual teams involved, even if the rules about 'having' to go Open need some reviewing. It's a shame if it is really all about medals for some people, I thought the US skydiving scene was cooler than that. Bugger. Another fantasy starts to fade. But I guess we all do this sport for different reasons - each to their own I guess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #78 July 8, 2003 QuoteQuoteQuote*** In a similar line of reasoning, I think it's unfair to place people of limited resources (self funded) up against teams with full sponsorships. I believe that was the intention of the creation of the Advanced Class. To me, three classes makes perfect sense. However, who actually is allowed to compete in each class needs some serious tweeking. Well, if that was the intention, then it was implemented in the strangest way! no, not really, the whole Player coach thing started happening with Dr Joel... then it started getting bigger with some world class skydivers out of work, so to speak, and has started growing from there. The original intent of the classes is exactly as Ron had described it, and I did send an email of support about a rule change (that didn't happen). Of course I still think you should be able to come back and defend your title.. and... like the rules of 10 way aren't changed and modified like every year. 10-way only has open class - weekend warriors compete with Airspeed and the GKs, same rules for all. You are confusing event rules with general rules concerning definitions of open, advanced and intermediate and which apply to more than one event. This is not like changing the dive pool. Problem seems to me that the objective of having several classes has somehow been lost in the implementation. Good process would include a review and feedback to ensure that the outcome matches the objective.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #79 July 8, 2003 QuoteGood process would include a review and feedback to ensure that the outcome matches the objective. True, but remember that not even NASA gets that right all the time.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skymonkey2 0 #80 August 7, 2003 AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ptwob231 0 #81 August 25, 2003 Looking for an opinion here. Ron: you can field this one. My team is an Air Force "sponsored" team. Started April 2003; maybe 100 jumps together and a couple hours in the tunnel. Jump numbers 450 - 700; avg 9 points on the AA pool. The dilemna = I'm on a "sponsored" team with no chance of placing in advanced. Why shouldn't we be in Intermediate? p.s. your answer won't change where we are since its up the air force not us where we enter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #82 August 25, 2003 QuoteLooking for an opinion here. Ron: you can field this one. My team is an Air Force "sponsored" team. Started April 2003; maybe 100 jumps together and a couple hours in the tunnel. Jump numbers 450 - 700; avg 9 points on the AA pool. The dilemna = I'm on a "sponsored" team with no chance of placing in advanced. Why shouldn't we be in Intermediate? p.s. your answer won't change where we are since its up the air force not us where we enter. Well, here we go. How much did you pay for only those 100 jumps and a few hrs of tunnel?....Oh yeah and your gear also? I know several teams that had to PAY for those 100 jumps, and BUY gear. And they are only doing a 5 to 7 AVG. in the AA draw. You do what you want....You have to live with yourself. Just realize that you have a much better setup than the other teams you will beat. Is that going to make you feel all warm and fuzzy? No one in that class has even close to what you do. And for the record...ask your leaders about me...They know me. I coached last years team. I never said that the AFA does not BELONG in Intermediate....But I have said many times that they are the GK of Intermediate. Military, both do about the same number of jumps as the other teams in that class....But don't pay for any of them. Sounds GKish to me. I don't have a problem with the GK's they are in open against other fully sponsord teams. But you will be the only one in Intermediate with that deal. So if you win...Think about that. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ptwob231 0 #83 August 25, 2003 QuoteQuote How much did you pay for only those 100 jumps and a few hrs of tunnel?....Oh yeah and your gear also? 100 jumps: probably 60 were paid for with your tax dollars Tunnel time: $1200 out of MY pocket and each of my teammates pockets my rig: $3993 i hope this answers your questions Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #84 August 25, 2003 PM'd"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #85 August 25, 2003 Quote You do what you want....You have to live with yourself. Just realize that you have a much better setup than the other teams you will beat. Is that going to make you feel all warm and fuzzy? No one in that class has even close to what you do. And for the record...ask your leaders about me...They know me. I coached last years team. I never said that the AFA does not BELONG in Intermediate....But I have said many times that they are the GK of Intermediate. Military, both do about the same number of jumps as the other teams in that class....But don't pay for any of them. Sounds GKish to me. I don't have a problem with the GK's they are in open against other fully sponsord teams. But you will be the only one in Intermediate with that deal. So if you win...Think about that. Ron The issue isn't teams taking advantage of the rules (any team that doesn't take advantage of the rules doesn't deserve to win). The issue is DUMB RULES that ask to be abused.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #86 August 25, 2003 QuoteThe issue isn't teams taking advantage of the rules (any team that doesn't take advantage of the rules doesn't deserve to win). The issue is DUMB RULES that ask to be abused. Yes, and the USPA that makes the rules acting stupid. The USPA is a waste."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 4 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Ron 7 #84 August 25, 2003 PM'd"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #85 August 25, 2003 Quote You do what you want....You have to live with yourself. Just realize that you have a much better setup than the other teams you will beat. Is that going to make you feel all warm and fuzzy? No one in that class has even close to what you do. And for the record...ask your leaders about me...They know me. I coached last years team. I never said that the AFA does not BELONG in Intermediate....But I have said many times that they are the GK of Intermediate. Military, both do about the same number of jumps as the other teams in that class....But don't pay for any of them. Sounds GKish to me. I don't have a problem with the GK's they are in open against other fully sponsord teams. But you will be the only one in Intermediate with that deal. So if you win...Think about that. Ron The issue isn't teams taking advantage of the rules (any team that doesn't take advantage of the rules doesn't deserve to win). The issue is DUMB RULES that ask to be abused.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #86 August 25, 2003 QuoteThe issue isn't teams taking advantage of the rules (any team that doesn't take advantage of the rules doesn't deserve to win). The issue is DUMB RULES that ask to be abused. Yes, and the USPA that makes the rules acting stupid. The USPA is a waste."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
