Viking 0 #1 January 21, 2003 I did a two way with a friend on sat and when i tryed to move closer it was a very slow thing even with my legs fully extened and my elbows in my rib cage. I am 6'3" so my legs aren't tiny by any measure! The jumpsuit i wear is very tight and does not have booties. Could this be my problem or is there an error in my form?I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casch 0 #2 January 21, 2003 I am just a noob giving this second hand, but according to Tom Hili "Learn to fly your body not the suit" So figure out the problem before you get booties. This will not only improve your performance w/out booties but you will have a greater range when you get them if you already know the perfect form. Sounds like you have the perfect body for tracking so maybe ask for a little tracking coaching, or do a few fun tracking jumps with friends to figure it out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #3 January 21, 2003 Couple of things...to do forward movement, use your legs and keep your arms in a neutral position. You have more surface area in your lower body and bringing your arms back only changes your angle of attack (steeper) towoards your target which can cause docks that are not on level. Docking on level is essential in RW Keeping your arms neutral also assist you with taking grips. Also, we cant see our legs...what we think is fully extended may only be half extension. It is pretty hard to actually lock your legs out totally. It takes a lot of strength. You may also want to examine HOW you are extending your legs. It is much easier to start the extension from your largest muscles to the smallest. Kinda like throwing a baseball. If you start twisting at the waist go through the back, then shoulder, bicep, forearm, etc you will get more power than just starting at the elbow for instance. Same principle applies to skydiving...gain more power with your hips, thighs, calves, toes. Make sense??? It could also be that you are physically built different. Shorter people, like me...have difficulty in flat tracking compared to taller people...but I can turn in place like a top. Recognizing this is important...going on tracking dives, I put on more surface area...no big deal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #4 January 21, 2003 Quote I did a two way with a friend on sat and when i tryed to move closer it was a very slow thing even with my legs fully extened and my elbows in my rib cage. I am 6'3" so my legs aren't tiny by any measure! The jumpsuit i wear is very tight and does not have booties. Could this be my problem or is there an error in my form? ok, here's the deal, instead of using your legs, use your arms.... how you ask... hang on ok basically put your arms straight out in front of you and push down with all you've got, you'll go forward and stay on level. two good things. you can practice while lying flat on the floor to get the feeling. Also if you go to the gym and do lat pull down, same sort of move. disclaimer --- this is primarily a point turning move Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albatross 0 #5 January 21, 2003 Someone would have to fly with you, but from the in air pictures I have seen of you, it might be your body position. You have a mega arch and with you legs and chest so high you might not be getting the change in body pitch that you need to move agressively forward. As much as we talk about using your legs to move you forward, part of it is that extending you legs pushes your legs up and your body pitches forward like what Weid was describing. THAT will really get you moving forward. Also while you say that your arms are in your chest and shoulders are a much bigger surface and might be cupped and catching air and slowing your movement.Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #6 January 21, 2003 hahaha i don't do the mega arch unless i want to get down to someone in a real hurry.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #8 January 21, 2003 Work on muscle memory. This is what I teach: Lay down on the floor in front of a mirror. Close your eyes and put yourself in the flying position that you feel you are in when you are in freefall. Open your eyes and look in the mirror. Are your legs really out? I'm thinking they are not, since you're not moving forward. Now, put your legs out, close your eyes and feel every muscle in your legs, what does it feel like? Memorize that feeling. Relax, close your eyes and try to go back into the correct body position. Also jumping with someone that can give you a good debrief and with video will help. Good luck.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #9 January 22, 2003 Quote when i tryed to move closer it was a very slow thing even with my legs fully extened and my elbows in my rib cage. There's the problem I believe. Pulling your elbows down can cause you to cup air with your upper body, causing backsliding(which is countered by your legs). Other than that, how do plan to dock with your hands at your ears?Keep your arms in a neutral position, ready to be used for docking, and use your legs for the forward drive. Coaching and having video taken(and later analyzed by someone knowledgeable) from your jumps is also a good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ptwob231 0 #10 January 23, 2003 If you're flying mantis body position without booties that may be your problem. Your hands and arms in the mantis create a large ball of air to fly your upper body with. This ball and the steep angle of your chest creates a lot of push in the backward direction. Without booties its hard to counter that force. I had the same problem - prior to getting a booty suit. Hope that made sense Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
btucker 0 #11 January 26, 2003 On an Airspeed tunnelcamp; I have had it explained to me that you alter your body pitch (i.e. tilt ) to move forward or back. I think of it like so: "Uncurling" your legs to tilt you forward. Droping your knees pushes you up and moves you back. Blues Benno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #12 January 26, 2003 QuoteOn an Airspeed tunnelcamp; I have had it explained to me that you alter your body pitch (i.e. tilt ) to move forward or back. I think of it like so: "Uncurling" your legs to tilt you forward. Droping your knees pushes you up and moves you back. Blues Benno so when you are turning points do you really want to go up and back (up being the key word there)? it pus you off level -- there are some others that teach other methods that keep you on level at the same time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #13 January 26, 2003 Yep, hes right...there are very few instances, if ever where you are going to want to do a manuever like that in RW. Its a fairly radical move that isnt applied often in a realworld scenario. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #14 January 26, 2003 QuoteYep, hes right...there are very few instances, if ever where you are going to want to do a manuever like that in RW. Its a fairly radical move that isnt applied often in a realworld scenario. That's because you have too narrow a view of RW.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #15 January 27, 2003 I can think of one advanced block maneuver that this would be "real world"...what randoms & blocks would you perform a knees on the ass, chest up backslide???? For what viking is looking to do (basic docking)...I wouldnt recommend such an aggressive maneuver. No need for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #16 January 27, 2003 QuoteI can think of one advanced block maneuver that this would be "real world"...what randoms & blocks would you perform a knees on the ass, chest up backslide???? For what viking is looking to do (basic docking)...I wouldnt recommend such an aggressive maneuver. No need for it. You make my point exactly. RW consists of a lot more than 4-way randoms and blocks.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #17 January 28, 2003 Slut....you'll never win against the prof... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #18 January 28, 2003 So whats your suggestion? You seem like a very qualified person to give it!I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jceman 1 #19 January 28, 2003 QuoteSlut....you'll never win against the prof... Especially in a case like this when Prof. Kallend is posilutely correct. Hell, all parties involved need not even be flying BTE to be doing relative work; I guarantee that I have to use a lot more "advanced" body positions to dock on my wife while she is sit flying than I did on the dz.com large way attempts. Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money. Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #20 January 28, 2003 QuoteSo whats your suggestion? You seem like a very qualified person to give it! Suggestion for what?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #21 January 28, 2003 Quote Quote Slut....you'll never win against the prof... Especially in a case like this when Prof. Kallend is posilutely correct. Hell, all parties involved need not even be flying BTE to be doing relative work; I guarantee that I have to use a lot more "advanced" body positions to dock on my wife while she is sit flying than I did on the dz.com large way attempts. Let's not talk about the positions you and your wife use. However, you are exactly right - those who think RW is only 4-way flown with linked exits miss the point. One problem folks are having is confusing movement with acceleration. A chest-high knees down position doesn't produce relative movement up and back, it produces acceleration up and back. The resulting movement depends on your initial momentum relative to the group. I am told that there is a nice picture of my 10-way team's exit in the February Parachutist. Haven't got my copy yet.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #22 January 28, 2003 and those who refuse to believe that there are better, more efficient ways to fly miss the point also. maybe you do need to pop up and back, if you're coming inhot on a formation, but if you are level and need to go to the next point (I know, there isn't a next point in 10 way), you may find yourself off level -- do you really want to do that? why make two moves (up and back, then down), when 1 is sufficient (straight or translating back). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #23 January 28, 2003 Quoteand those who refuse to believe that there are better, more efficient ways to fly miss the point also. maybe you do need to pop up and back, if you're coming inhot on a formation, but if you are level and need to go to the next point (I know, there isn't a next point in 10 way), you may find yourself off level -- do you really want to do that? why make two moves (up and back, then down), when 1 is sufficient (straight or translating back). No - you don't need to pop up and back (except maybe when instructing AFF in response to a strange student move), but you may need to arrest a forward and down motion on any skydive where you swoop on a formation - it's acceleration, not velocity that is relevant here. Of course, you could do it in 2 steps, but why would you if you can do it in one? Of course, some skydivers never get to swoop a formation if all they ever do is 4-way.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #24 January 28, 2003 yeah, all those 4way people on the 300 way made their first swoop.... I guess they all owe beer.you are talking about stoping/arresting/decelerating, which is different than backing up to move to another formation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #25 January 28, 2003 Quote yeah, all those 4way people on the 300 way made their first swoop.... I guess they all owe beer. The 300-way participants that I know are good all - around skydivers, not tunnel-visioned 4-way is the only way folks. Interesting how few were flying mantis on the 300 way video. Quote you are talking about stoping/arresting/decelerating, which is different than backing up to move to another formation. Not in terms of body position: f = m*a and you need an "a" that is back and up to stop a v that is forward and down. The laws of physics are strictly enforced.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
