darkwing 4 #1 December 23, 2002 I'd like to get recommendations for various tunnel drill exercises. I will be with a group of six, with widely varying experrience levels. One has been to the tunnel several times, a couple have been once, and others never. Any and all suggestions for specific solo or duet tunnel drills will be appreciated, and make it in to my archives of helpful stuff to give to other people. I did a search and didn't come up with much... -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mischo 0 #2 December 24, 2002 Hi Brother, I just got back from a day at the tunnel w/ Geoff Grizzard. I can't say enough good things about him. This is the third time I have hired him. He is a good teacher and communicates very well in the tunnel.(you are able to understand what he wants with a full face on, if you can belive it!) He runs you through the full monte. He starts with basic body position, moves into center point turns, superpositioning, levels. Then into lots of drills. I know this is a basic template that almost all of the coaches follow, but He seems to be able to work with everybody regardless of skill level. We had a guy with 1500 jumps and a guy with 140 and everyone was smilling! The best drills, in my opinion, were 90, 180, 270, 360, 540 degree turn drills. buddies, cats, comp, comp, was also one of my favorites. Geoff works at the tunnel so you can get a hold of Him there. He is definetly worth it. Best of luck, Mish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albatross 0 #3 December 24, 2002 Some tunnel is better than no tunnel, but doing it uncoached almost defetes the purpose of goin unless you are working with piece partners and have already done a lot of personel flying. The best use iof the tunnel is to work on mechanics and get quality reps at a particular move or skill. If you go in with your friends unless one of them has a bunch of tunnel time and the skills to see and correct body position errors, you will just be pacticing what you already know, not improving it. Hire a coach! If you can't hire a coach, fly less and hire a coach.Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendejo 0 #4 December 24, 2002 IS IT THURSDAY YET??!?!?!?!?!?! He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the beer! Pendejo Pendejo He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4waynut 0 #5 December 24, 2002 There are lots of tunnel curricula out there. I agree with Albatross (as I usually do) that going to the tunnel without a coach is not a good idea. My pick: David Van Greuningen [email protected] He is so utterly competent at coaching and is a heck of a nice guy. Split his daily rate among your group and he will put your through the paces. The wonderful folks at Skyventure can also direct you to a coach, but Albatross and I are products of his coaching and so is the above-mentioned Grizz (Geoff Grizzard). Good luck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4waynut 0 #6 December 24, 2002 Can you tell I am BLONDE and worked all day??? David Van Greuningen's e-mail address is: [email protected] Gotta lay off the Diet Coke and get some rest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #7 December 24, 2002 Quote I'd like to get recommendations for various tunnel drill exercises. I will be with a group of six, with widely varying experrience levels. One has been to the tunnel several times, a couple have been once, and others never. Any and all suggestions for specific solo or duet tunnel drills will be appreciated, and make it in to my archives of helpful stuff to give to other people. I did a search and didn't come up with much... it is difficult to give you tunnel drills in written form without showing them to you.... there are a whole range of them that work through and progress into each skill area. like I could say open compressed to half bipole, and you would have no idea what I meant and to write it would take a long time (me anyway).... anymore I can't stand going in the tunnel alone (Ron will tell me now that it is valuable time to hone skills while looking at yourself in the mirror, my retort is that I'm not that vain -- but he is right, but I still dont' like it). actaully since I don't live there anymore (still in denial about access to the tunnel I think) I won't get in there much in the near future. anyway, best coaches in my opinion, are Doug, joey, and Shannon, I haven't actauly been in the tunnel with Dave lately, if ever. Niklas Hemlin is good too. but I digress. Make stuff up that makes you move your center point, and not wobble around the tunnel, go in wtih a whole set planned and written on the white board (they are around, just ask), abouve all have fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #8 December 24, 2002 Quote The wonderful folks at Skyventure can also direct you to a coach, but Albatross and I are products of his coaching and so is the above-mentioned Grizz (Geoff Grizzard). Good luck! You're absolutely right about David being an outstanding coach, but just a touch of clarification: Grizz was doing 4-way and flying pretty well before David joined us. Grizz is also one of the flight instructors at the tunnel. I just didn't want anyone to think from that comment that Grizz was an absolutely product of David's coaching. I just wouldn't want any credit taken away from Grizz's personal flying skills, ya know? With that being said, good luck with the tunnel camp. Shannon and David are both outstanding flyers and are more than worth the $100/day. It's good to see somebody is working on 4-way on the west coast. blues, arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smooth 0 #9 December 24, 2002 I have to agree with Dave that "...it is difficult to give you tunnel drills in written form without showing them to you.." but for a quick outline you could take a look at the Airspeed tunnel camp curriculum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #10 December 24, 2002 thanks for the tips. The tunnel camp curriculum is a great starting point, so we won't have to reinvent the wheel. It is too late to get everyone organized for a formal coach, but perhaps next time. Everyone sure speaks highly of a well-coached experience. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4waynut 0 #11 December 26, 2002 It's NOT too late. Just set up a coach, what's so involved about that? E-mail or contact the tunnel folks or see if David is available. You are spending big bucks for the tunnel time, dont' waste it---mark my words, as soon as you get there you will see that your dropzone.com pals are looking out for you. Good luck, write back and tell us how it went! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #12 December 26, 2002 4 waynut....your getting a little, well nuts about this. Yes a coach is a good idea...whenever you train, in whatever you are training in. But not everyone wants one. Several reasons...one might be cost. I believe you had a team fall apart over cost this past year right? And the end result is that the will improve just by getting the Airtime. But I would recomend that the group has a coach as well. Brian Johnson, David, Shannon, Kurt Gaebel, Bob Healey, Steve Johnson, Niklas Gummeson, Chromy, Griz, Scott Franklin, myself any of the folks from Majic, XL,..ect.. There are WAY to many coaches in central FL for there to be a problem getting one. Darkwing...PM me if you want me to try work on it for you. I live in FL, and my team (Frost) did a lot of tunnel, I am coaching an Intermediate team this year, and I coach the Airforce teams in the tunnel. Plus I know all of the coaches in this area. I would be happy to help ya, either myself(if its on a weekend or at night), of hook you up with another coach. Let me know when,how much you might want to spend,#of people,skill level,what you want to work on,ect. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albatross 0 #13 December 26, 2002 I know that 4waynut is passionate but she is doing it from a position of caring. Those of us who have come to the place of body flight are passionate about it. I agree that any air time will make you a better flier. You will move faster if you spend time practicing and you might get the most efficient movements. HOWEVER, the PD Blue, Majik, and Airspeed guys have all come to realize that the tunnel is the perfect place to practice the body flight skills and some blocks and moves. They have spent 100s of housr in the tunnel learning the best ways to teach, the test way to move, and the most efficient use of time. I think that 4waynut is just trying to convince people who are spending alot of $$$ and have limited access to the tunnel to not reinvent the wheel but to take the experience and build on it and not make all the mistakes that have been done before. She is trying to make the most out of their tunnel time and $$$. About David she is just a believer in him and loves his style. We all have our favorite coaches and styles. You can't knock her for that (all the women love David and some guys). Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #14 December 26, 2002 I agree with you, and her. However most people stop paying attention as soon as you start to yell. It is not what she is preaching that I am against....It's how it is presented. She has on several occasions posted rants insulting several very good "old school" skydivers. Saying the way they skydive is wrong???? How can it be wrong? Some of them invented the damn sport. It may not be "cool" or the latest "fad". But I remember when the "boxman" was hot shit. And there were people like her back then as well. It's not that I don't agree with her, its just as soon as she starts to yell she will loose half of the people that she is trying to reach. And in the process she pisses a lot of people off. I fly the "Mantis"....I use the hell out of the tunnel. I teach the tunnel.... But I am very thankful of all the people who came before me. I am glad that they jumped the rounds, Jalbert Parafoils, peredactals (sp?) ect...so I didn't have to. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albatross 0 #15 December 27, 2002 I am good with that. I agree with you that it is hard for "old school" jumpers to be told that the way they fly is wrong. I think that if we all step back and take our emotions out of it these positions are all just an evolution. I know that I can get preachy about getting to the new stuff, but like you I truely believe in what David, Ian, Shannon.... are teaching as the evolution of the boxman and Mantis. I think that the tunnel has take body flight eons into the future. The amount of knowledge we amassed in the 60s and 70s took doubled in the 80 and quadrupiled in the 90s and takes even less time now. With the advent of the tunnel that learning curve went ballistic, like introducing ZP for canopies. The top guys have flown as much time in the tunnel as they have in their lives in the air (in like 10% of the time). No the old ways are not right or wrong, but new discoveries or even just structuring all theinformation that these pioneers had is helping young skydivers lean faster. I think the quote "If I have seen further it is because I have stood on the backs of giants." Fits nicely here. How about we will (4waynut and I) will yell a little less if you see our passion not for arogance but for a true desire for everyone to become the best they can be Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4waynut 0 #16 December 27, 2002 That was quite a rant about my ranting. We do not all communicate in the same way and yes, I am very passionate about helping weekend fun-jumpers like myself learn more, and exposing us west-coast jumpers to the kind of talent you in Florida have at your disposal and perhaps might even take for granted. It has taken a lot of work and dedication, and dropzone.com has actually yielded some interest in events and tunnel trips. It was fairly thankless even before reading your post Just as you are entitled to disagree with and dislike my posts, I am entitled to communicate my ideas in an environment of respect as is shown everyone else without being singled out. Based on the PM's I have received, not everyone agrees with you either. Albatross: I love you man! Quade? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheRock 0 #17 December 27, 2002 Classy response from a kind lady who really cares. When you speak up, people will try to bring you down but don't let them! I always look for your posts, they inspire me! You are wonderful and loved out here. Don't lose the passion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saltnlight 0 #18 December 27, 2002 J, thanks for waking me up and directing me to this page. Pammy, you are my mentor. Ron's comments prove that he does not know you and has no comprehension of your selfless contributions here in California. I arrived at Perris from Nashville with 50 jumps, no booties, a frap hat, and the worst body position you can imagine. I was frustrated and had no confidence. You shared your faith and your ideas with little old me. Pammy, you and you alone motivated me to get good information and get to the wind tunnel in Florida to learn to fly, and then hire coaches to train me. That was 2001 and now I am realizing my dream of being on a 4-way team. I miss Perris like crazy, but I love your e-mails and now I joined dropzone.com so I can follow posts from you and your growing number of fellow 4-way nuts. I too feel that going to the wind tunnel without coaching, especially the first time, is not a prudent use of money so Ron can just go ahead and criticize me all over the place too. "Smile, make them wonder what you got, make them wish that they were not on the outside looking for it." Bekka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #19 December 27, 2002 QuoteQuade? Not really my dance, but . . . From the coaching I've been able to obvserve from David and Shannon, they are top notch. I can't say the same for a lot of the east coast only coaches because I haven't seen a lot of them or what they do. I will say this. There's more to coaching than just being able to fly your body or turn points. David and Shannon aren't only great skydivers, they're great coaches as well on many, many aspects of the sport from the physical to the mental. I believe that you're paying a coach to not just be a monkey in the tunnel and drill you, but to give you a certain level of guidance about how to go about it for your own particular needs, body type, physical performance level and mental fitness level. Again, this is the type of thing I've noticed in great coaches; David and Shannon are right up there. I'm not going to say that a person would be wasting their money by going another way or maybe just going it alone, there may be a bit of value in that at some level -- I don't know, not really my dance -- but I can't imagine that hiring a good coach would be a bad thing to jumpstart your good habits or correct your bad ones. My guess is that unless you already can make your own drill plan (because you already know ALL about what works and what doesn't in the tunnel), then a coach would certainly be worthwhile to help you develop one.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 14 #20 December 28, 2002 Coaches are great tools, but how many golfers run out and get Tiger Woods to coach them right away when their local pro would do just as nice? I've seen Shannon teach at a skills camp and he's great. I've also seen some tunnel rats coach and I thoguht they did as good if as a better job in some aspects. Hiring top line talent to coach usually comes at a lot line price too. For your first time in the tunnel you might not have the skills to use anything more then the basic knowledge that the high dollar coach offers, where for a lot less money you could have a coach thats just as great, just less well known. Put that extra money back into more air time. On the second trip or so you might have your skill requirements higher so a better coach is needed.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albatross 0 #21 December 28, 2002 While I do think that the "tunnel Rats" do a good job and some of them are top quality coaches in their own right, I am sticking by my guns. The average coach is that because his eyes are not as sharp and coaching not as good. I know that there are some people who have an amazing ability to fly and know a ton about body flight but can not teach. However, Shannon, David and the other top coaches are simply put better at their job than most everyone else. I think that anyone would be better off spending 50% of the time in the tunnel with good coaching at the begining, than 200% of the time with friends. These are the basics that we are talking about. Being a teacher of many things (science, math, martial arts) I believe that the right training and prespective in the begining saves 100 time the time over the long hall. It means that you don't have to compensate for errors with more errors only to be frustrated when you hit a wall. You don't have to unlearn the bad habbits, you don't have to look for the solutions or insights that have already been found. A good coach like a good teacher can make you understand in a fraction of the time. To use your analogy of Golf, if you get a good coach he will give you all the fundimentals to have a great swing. It might take longer to get a small improvement but you will soon get much better and continue to improve and be able to make corrections and progress. An adiquate coach will give you a small fix for a symptom and will usually get a small but rapid improvement only to see it degrade and become the same old thing or even worse later. Train Hard Train rightChris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #22 December 29, 2002 I am going to say this just one time.... I have no problem with what she or anyone else says.... I agree with what she says (to a point) I agree that David and others are great coaches... All I ever really said that was negative was that in her passion, she has said things that could (and have) been taken wrong by several great skydivers. (even if they are not flying the new "fad" body position). It was never a slam on coaches..or her.... Just an observation of her "passion" being read wrong....By her saying things in ways that make it seem like those who came before us don't know anything. Again, Like I said I agree that the Mantis is the new hot shit, and that the tunnel is awesome, and that coaching is worth every penny you pay, and that David, Shannon ect are wonderful people (that I have known for about 8 years). Ect...... But like I said I am done with this..... Rant all ya want, but you will loose 50% of your targeted group by ranting like that.... Oh well....The one who want to learn will....the ones that don't won't. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #23 January 1, 2003 QuoteWhile I do think that the "tunnel Rats" do a good job which folks do YOU refer to as the tunnel rats and what would you base that "good job" opinion on? Just curious.... I'm trying to figure out what you base your "average coach" label on... arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #24 January 1, 2003 Quote Quote While I do think that the "tunnel Rats" do a good job which folks do YOU refer to as the tunnel rats and what would you base that "good job" opinion on? Just curious.... I'm trying to figure out what you base your "average coach" label on... arlo I sense an east coast/west coast thing here. I guess though that people should understand that most "tunnel rats" have more flight time than a lot of coaches and have gottne to observe many many tunnel camps and can take away what works and what doesn't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #25 January 1, 2003 Quote I sense an east coast/west coast thing here. Yep. And it will get more intense as the tunnels emerge in SoCal. Isn't competition grand?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
