mischo 0 #1 November 6, 2002 Hi Y'all, I was wondering if anyone here knows the rules of building the random formation C. Is it acceptable to sting either of the centers or is specific to one side. thank you, Mish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #2 November 6, 2002 On the randoms, as far as the RULES go, it doesn't matter who is in what slot as long as the grips are the same as the ones in the diagrams. For instance, if, for some wackey reason you wanted the Point, Inside, Outside or Tail person to be the one that stings -- that's just fine and depending on the engineering solution you come up with for a particular skydive -- it -may- even make more sense. As far as what is normally accepted and done by different teams, that's another matter altogether.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #3 November 6, 2002 what Quade says.... 90% of the time the IC is going to have the tail catting. there are only a few instances where the tail would cat the OC in the random build.... we only did it every once in awhile, and I can't remember the formation we were coming from where this engineering worked better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mischo 0 #4 November 6, 2002 I am sorry, my question is. Can the formation be built to the right or the left? Is the man (regardless of slot) with the inside grip on the out facing person mandated to have the cat on him. Is it within the rules to build C with the cat on who would traditionaly be Outside Center? Mish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #5 November 6, 2002 and we both said yes, but I also said you probably wouldn't do it very often (unless maybe you're juping a right hand door vs left hand and everything looks different. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #6 November 6, 2002 yes, you can put the Tail on the Outside center. You can build any formation as a mirror image. Take the dive pool and hold it up to the light, look at it from the backside....Its a mirror. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mischo 0 #7 November 7, 2002 Cool, I am still new at all of this and I am looking for all the tricks. Thanks for the good information. I was watching the best of airspeed video and I am trying to decipher all of the differences in the engineering and builds of all the dives on it. Thanks again brothers Mish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #8 November 7, 2002 QuoteCool, I am still new at all of this and I am looking for all the tricks. Thanks for the good information. I was watching the best of airspeed video and I am trying to decipher all of the differences in the engineering and builds of all the dives on it. Thanks again brothers Mish oh wow, don't even attempt to decipher that if you are new, they use a continuity plan that only a team with 1000's of jumps together can accomplish. plus they run a west coast offense, east coast continuity is different, the exits (some) are different than a lesser trained team will do also. it is a good tape, though. you should also get the Russian meet that Majik did and see the differences. check out www.skyleague.com for different video's quite frequently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjasantos 0 #9 November 7, 2002 Hi Steve, Following your initial question, if you'd like have a look at my 4-way FS Team "Matrix FS" performing the Murphy Flake in 2 different manners... there are many others, but these show you that it's possible to build this formation as you've questioned. When we talk about randoms and blocks, the combinations are zilions... Talking about both attached pics, I can tell you that while keeping our relative positions (slots) to each other within the Team, these are different built Murphy Flakes. On "Matrix_FS_Murphy_Flake_1" pic, we are in our A Slots, and this is our regular Murphy Flake... this was built on the "E - G - C - A - M" page. On "Matrix_FS_Murphy_Flake_2" pic, we have kept our relative sectors, but the Tail has been in the Point of the Murphy Flake, the Point has been in the Tail, myself (Outside Center) have been "catting" the "new" Point of the Murphy Flake, and the Inside Center took the job in the formation that usually is mine... this was built on the "F - 17 - C - 16" page. Hope it helps to visualize! Blue Skies! ----------------------------- Mario Santos Portugal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #10 November 7, 2002 what kind of plane did you exit? and why would you take an B slot Murphy coming out of a round formation? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjasantos 0 #11 November 7, 2002 Hi David, Quote what kind of plane did you exit? On both jumps, from an Otter. Quote and why would you take an B slot Murphy coming out of a round formation? In the attachment have a look at the Murphy we came from (Pink is Point, Green is OC, Blue is IC and Yellow is Tail). As you know Block 17 is a Mirror Image one... we could have opted by doing our regular Murphy Flake but mirrored... then we would have Point and Tail doing 180º, IC doing a left 90º to "cat" grip with his left hand on Point left leg and myself keeping still finishing the formation. The way we did it, I was the only one having an almost 90º left move (a little shorter than this)... all the others did just minor adjustments to set up the Murphy Flake... making it a faster transition, although not being our regular Murphy Flake. It could have been done as well with IC "catting" on the Murphy Flake "new" Point, but because next formation was the "Compressed Accordian" from the Block 16, we've engineered as in the pic attached (a Mirror Image of our A slots... in our continuity plan, we put the memory - or slots switch - in the rear piece), permiting also a faster transition, as you'll be able to confirm. That's why we have opted by the first mentioned solution. I have no doubts that this page could have been engineered in so many different ways (zillions )... depends on the team's continuity plan, on the faster transitions between formations, etc.. Recently, you have got a good example: at US Nationals, Round 6, all the 3 top teams (GK Gold, Vertical and Majik, engineered differently... at the end, all of them scored 22... which was the best engineering way? ). Blue Skies! ----------------------------- Mario Santos Portugal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjasantos 0 #12 November 7, 2002 Quote (...) an B slot Murphy coming out of a round formation? The attached pic is beter than the diagram of my previous post. Anyway, the diagram was good to explain the slots... Blue Skies! ----------------------------- Mario Santos Portugal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #13 November 8, 2002 oh, you take your point over on block 17, that actually is pretty unique way to do it as it leaves the tail out-facing, which is not normally where they are looking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mischo 0 #14 November 8, 2002 I was just watching round six on NSL tv and I was wondering. Which of those dive flows did you guys think was the best plan. Mish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #15 November 8, 2002 Quote I was just watching round six on NSL tv and I was wondering. Which of those dive flows did you guys think was the best plan. Mish well, since we took the swing to make the dive a repeater, Majik's engineering... airspeed will split memory, Knights put memory in the back, and majik puts it in the front, that will also make a difference in engineering (airspeed and the knights will spin comp box "backwards" from majik) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mischo 0 #16 November 9, 2002 Good morning Bro, I was just looking at rd6 again to see what you meant, I dont know the term swing. I am assuming the move from the OC is the swing and I see how that turns the sequence into a straight repeater. The OC spins and negates the front slot switch in 16. If that is what the swing is please let me know. Mish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #17 November 10, 2002 yes we call a swing move one in which you take a maybe longer, maybe weird move back to your normal slots so you can do the block in the more comfortable position. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mischo 0 #18 November 10, 2002 Wassup Brother, I definitely think that side slide was a easy way to solve the front slot switch. I suppose at that level a slot switch isn't a probable brain lock but, taking it out of the mix is just that much more of an edge. If you don't mind I would like to ask what team you are on. I would very much like to pick your and Marios' brain on many questions. Take care and Blue skies Tomorrow Mish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Watcher 0 #19 November 11, 2002 Go from a Phalanx with the Point and OC out facing, the transition for the tail to the OC is faster than to the IC. Or from or 2 a Hook. JonathanJonathan Bartlett D-24876 AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #20 November 11, 2002 QuoteGo from a Phalanx with the Point and OC out facing, the transition for the tail to the OC is faster than to the IC. Or from or 2 a Hook. Jonathan depends on what is before those randoms, there is more than K and Q, they lend themselves to different slots and shapes more than the C in my experience, I can only recall one or two times where we would build the C with tail on OC, in general you want to keep piece partners together. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Watcher 0 #21 November 12, 2002 We do it all the time, We have a very flexible continuity plan. What about already being in a Right hnad donut, makes much more sense to go to a OC flaked Murphy Flake. Piece Partners we have found do not matter at all on randoms, its just a random and built for effiency. JonathanJonathan Bartlett D-24876 AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #22 November 12, 2002 QuoteWe do it all the time, We have a very flexible continuity plan. What about already being in a Right hnad donut, makes much more sense to go to a OC flaked Murphy Flake. Piece Partners we have found do not matter at all on randoms, its just a random and built for effiency. Jonathan you won't get away with that in the advanced class.... again a right hand donut is a round formation, and assuming you're talking about a mirrored skydive (which is where a right hand donut would come into play), it's still the tail on the IC in the "C". your continuity plan would not be as flexible if you were to jump the whole dive pool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #23 November 12, 2002 Dave has a point. Anyway, the idea behind having a continuity plan is, well, maintaining some shape fashion or form of continuity. Flexibility is a given, but it's sorta silly to have a continuity plan of which there's nothing to follow. That's why your avg Joe Blow skydiving team() like Majik, Airspeed, Knights, etc have a continuity plan more than by name only. Why are there A slots and B slots? You can try to equally as good at one or the other, but bottom line is the two will never be exactly equal: you will be better at one than the other. Also, by maintaining a continuity plan, you have the opportunity to build in muscle memory which in turn, allows for quicker builds. NOTE: Flexibility should apply towards one's general attitude within the sport. If you (generally speaking, of course) can't open your mind to constructive criticism (i.e., low hook turns, downsizing too fast, proper operation of emergency procedures, etc), you WILL, at a minimum, hurt yourself and at worst, kill yourself and/or someone else. There is sooooooooooooooooooooo much to learn in this sport. It's good not to assume you know everything because you will be proved wrong...and you'll miss out on some incredible opportunities to meet some really cool people that can actually teach you something... blues, arloblues, arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjasantos 0 #24 November 19, 2002 Quote oh, you take your point over on block 17, that actually is pretty unique way to do it as it leaves the tail out-facing, which is not normally where they are looking. Hi David, I'm sure this is wasn't the first time you saw this, was it? It wasn't too long ago and I still remember it (please remember "Skydive 4'99" tape), when we could see Jack Jefferies (point) doing it... when performing this Block 17, he used to go over Mark Kirkby (tail), while Kirk Verner (OC) and Dan BC (IC) kept their slots... this was the Arizona Airspeed 4-Way FS Team and they were used to do it both from the exit or at terminal... they have been World Champions... Depending on a continuity plan, as you know from your wide FS experience and background, each way of performing a block is unique by itself. The chosen option within the team to execute a certain move, should be the best for that team, although it might not be the best for another team... that's why there are so many different ways of performing those block moves... Getting back to the Block 17 (Danish Tee - Murphy), please have a look at two recognized as "very skilled" teams, DeLand Majik and Golden Knights Gold, while performing this Block at the recent NSL Championship 2002. Both teams have their very unique way of performing it... just to remember those more used with this terminology, Block 17 is a "rorrim" (to be read reversing... e.g. "mirror") image type Block, which means that if started in the A Slots, the ending picture of the Block will be a mirrored image of the initial A Slots... all this, because the people in the center of the Danish Tee (regardless who is there) change their relative positions while performing the Block... DeLand Majik have interpreted this Block as a normal Mirror Image Block, inserted in a sequence (F-G-17-P) of randoms. They have done it with the IC going over the OC, who finishes facing outside (a center facing outside? No problem...)... the second page is a mirrored image of the 1st one and the 3rd page is performed in the same way as the 1st one (after two mirrored images we get a normal one)... See the video at http://www.skyleague.com/TVNSL2002MajikRd1.WMV Golden Knights Gold did the very same same Block with a very different interpretation (also a very unique way...)... page after page they executed this block and the remaining randoms with Slots Switch for both the front and the rear pieces, simultaneously... on the Block 17 "going over move", they started with the IC going over the OC... the next page the Tail goes over the Point (already in their switched Slots -> B Slots)... a very different skydive engineering, this time also with very different scores. See the video at http://www.skyleague.com/TVNSL2002GKRd1.WMV. Personally, I would prefer the way DeLand Majik did it... a mirror image performing should be easier than a Slots switch one! But htis is just my personal preference: doesn't mean that one way is better than the other or vice-versa... Conclusion: There are very different unique ways of doing things... the more there are, the more we can choose the one that suits us best! Blue Skies! ----------------------------- Mario Santos Portugal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #25 November 19, 2002 I won't write near as much as you did...I was dirt diving that round, some teams decided to take the back piece slot switch (I was dirt diving with one of those teams). Majik's continuity won't put the back piece in a switch. They scored a 28 (30-2, but I didn't see the bust did you?). the knights continuity has some slot switching in the back. but its' still the back piece going over. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
