Doing big-ways

[steve1 5]

I find the big formations that are being built now days fascinating. I'm just wondering if they are worth the risk involved. About a year and a half ago three guys from our DZ went to Chicago for a world record attempt. Only two of them came back. One was killed in a mid-air collision on openning. I guess one wave of jumpers got over the top of another. If I was good enough to be asked on such a load I'm not sure if I'd do it. One of the three jumpers that I just mentioned says that he plans to return to Chicago and try again. He says it's a rush that is hard to explain, to see that many people exiting at once and being part of all this. He also said it was a long ride home without their partner. I've heard some people say that there was too many low time jumpers on this attempt to be safe. Any comments on all this?

[quade 3]

It's definately more dangerous than jumping solo -- I think anyone would admit to that.
-Anyone- that gets invited on one of these larger size jumps (let's say anything with tripple digits) clearly knows the risks involved and has proven themselves in smaller big-ways. Some load organizers use local mini-way camps to try out folks they might invite on the larger stuff. Anything kinky in your skills or judgement and you'll be passed over until they improve.
It's also very political. People may get invited to one load organizer's events and couldn't buy their way into another's.
I don't think that anyone ever has to fear being invited on a really big big-way they can't handle. If you couldn't handle it, I can -almost- gaurantee that you'd never be considered in the first place.
quade
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[PhreeZone 15]

I dont know.... At the last world record attempt not enough people showed up and I saw pleads on several places on the web asking anyone with at least a D licence to show up and try and get on to help set the record. If they used the people, thats another story.....
Political Correctness-At least one person at any one time will be offended by something

[skybytch 259]

I have just over 800 jumps right now. So far the largest dive I've been on was 37 people in the air - 36 on the dive and a video guy. I've been on about thirty 20-35 ways over the past 3 years or so. I'll be doing 60 ways in Arizona in May on my way to being a part of the 141 way women's world record attempts to be held in Perris in October. So I don't yet have experience on any really big-ways but I will by the end of this year.
I feel I've been very lucky in that the organizers I've jumped with so far all emphasize safety, and the others on the loads are generally either close to or at my level as far as skill/talent/jump numbers goes or they are better than I am. I love doing larger RW dives and I can't wait to be on the even bigger-ways in the future.
Yes, there is increased risk on any big-way, but I think that risk can be and is managed well by most organizers. I do think that low timers really shouldn't be on larger RW dives if they haven't proven themselves to be outstanding skydivers. As an example, the majority of the women who will be on the WWR this year will have well over 1000 jumps and most have already been on a number of previous 100 way skydives. I was on the ground when the current womens world record of 118 was set in 1999 and heard many of those women comment on how well organized the dives were and that they actually felt safer on those dives than on many "everyday" much smaller formation loads at their home dz's. This gives me confidence that I'm not likely to end up in a freefall or canopy collision on these dives.
I think that just like in canopy choices, each skydiver has to decide for themselves how much risk they want to take. For me, the incomparable thrill of being on a really large skydive is worth the chances of a collision. By choosing to jump with highly respected organizers with excellent track records (organizers who insist on a higher experience and currency level for dive participants) I think the odds of such a collision happening are lessened considerably.
imho of course....
pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?

[quade 3]

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At the last world record attempt not enough people showed up and I saw pleads on several places on the web asking anyone with at least a D licence to show up and try and get on to help set the record.

Ok, there's the beginning of the political part . . .
And maybe I'm REALLY spoiled by the folks I'm associated with because I absolutely know that concept just -wouldn't- fly with them.
Here's the FAQ for one of the organizers I know.
You can make up your own mind about who's safe and who's safer probably by just looking at the fatalities page and figuring out who's where when.
quade
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[PhreeZone 15]

Dead link Paul.......
Political Correctness-At least one person at any one time will be offended by something

[quade 3]

Quote

Dead link Paul.......

Damn fat fingers!
Try it now.
http://futurecam.com

[AggieDave 6]

I'm a low jumper (100 jumps) and the largest I've been on was a 17 way. Looking back, I know for a fact that I shouldn't have been near that one (something like jump 70) and shouldn't be near anything like that again for a while...but damn it was a rush to be in the air with that many people!
With that said, I couldn't imagine a 3-digit dive, or hell, anything over 20 people. I know that I wouldn't do it. If I *was* qualified, I know I wouldn't want anyone on there with less then probably 500 jumps (for a 3-digit dive)....
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[Kelly 0]

ive got close to 70 jumps and have only done two 4 way RW dives..
ive been working on my sit for the past 30 jumps or so, with some 2 way and solo (gotta keep up with the 360's ) RW jumps in there too..
the biggest FF jump ill do is a 3 way, with people i know WELL and trust and know their competent..
as far as RW goes.. its harder for me to be willing to do an bigger RW jump cause of the fact that youre flying so close, right at eachother, the entire time. A 3 way FF jump still is successfull if theres some seperation (and its still got its dangers , i know). a RW jump with seperation isnt considered 'successful' by technical standards.
i really want to do more RW, but its hard to find 3 other people , available for the same load, that i trust enough, and know thier skilled enough for me to feel comfortable on it. (remember that ive only done 3 jumps at my home dz since october.. so ive been traveling and meeting new people, people that i dont know well)
My little corner of the web.

[Jumperpaula 0]

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I'm a low jumper (100 jumps) and the largest I've been on was a 17 way.

Scottie, as much as I love him and think he's a good organizer for low timers, had a tendency to let them get too big ...especially considering the experience level.
He tried to put low timers in a spot they could handle, that would make them sucessful and feel good about the dive. Sometimes it was a great Moral booster, sometimes it generated feelings for failure.
Your right, 17 way was a little much for you at that point. You could have said No, or you could have tried it. It was your choice, but at some point, the load organizer should know when to say NO, and when the skydive is getting too big for the experience level.
That what being a Load Organizer, or Captain for a Big Way attempt is all about...knowing the experience level and when to say NO.
Fly Your Slot !

[tigra 0]

For the record Phree,
The organizers did cut people and they did turn people away, even though they were short the 300 people they wanted to set a new record. Safety was very important to all of the participants and organizers. Jumpers at SDC and across the country were doing "big ways" all season (and the previous season as well) in preparation for the event, and skills of all the skydivers who wanted on the attempt were being evaluated constantly. If you couldn't cut it, if you weren't a team player, if you had 1000 jumps, but not enough "big way" experience, you didn't get on, plain and simple. Did the organizers do what they could to lure Jerry Bird and others to the event? Of course they did! But the 200 jump wonders who showed up with their D licenses were politely but firmly turned away.
The men and women that participated in that record attempt showed a great deal of heart throughout the week, and every day more and more qualified skydivers showed up. These weren't sky gods, just regular everyday "weekend warriors" who worked their asses off to be qualified to participate in a record attempt like this. They were proud to be there, and ready and willing to do their absolute best. By the end of the week, there were enough qualified skydivers to set a new record. And, yes, some scrambling was done to get licenses and FAI cards in order. A lot of people around the world worked overtime to help out so that any record would be "official" if it happened.
If you weren't there, and didn't see the faces of the participants as the boarded their aircraft, or finally packed up and left the hangar at the end of a 14 hour day. If you didn't see the captains and organizers late at night sorting out the day's jumps and planning for the next, why speculate and comment about what really went on? Why insult the participants or the organizers?
And Steve,
Yes, these large formations are very risky. Just one person not being in the right place at the right time can cause a serious accident or fatality. Everyone knows that from the start, and makes their decisions accordingly. A detailed staged breakoff and deployment plan is practiced for every dive, and that plan needs to be followed in order to prevent the kind of accident that happened in 2000.
I have mixed feelings about the quest for a world record 300 way. I can't help but wonder if the risk is too high, but a part of me also wants to participate. I'm not sure if the opportunity will ever come up, but if it does, that's a decision I will need to make at that time.

[AggieDave 6]

That wasn't a Scotty organized jump. The jumps I was on with Scotty I had no problem with for size or anything. That jump was at the AOT Boogie out of a CASA...it was organized very loosely by a couple of jumpers going "hey, we've got a big plane, lets try this..." Sort of a bad situation, ya know?
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[kallend 1,623]

There were low timers (<500 jumps) at the event, maybe a dozen. I was one of them, I had 410 at the start. We had all trained for big-ways during that summer at SDC on 40 ways, 60 ways etc. No one just turned up out of the blue with 200 jumps and a "D".
I had an outer wacker slot. We broke off at 7,000ft and tracked until 2k. I don't think I was ever closer than 150 yards to another jumper by the time I dumped.
Quite a few people were axed for poor performance, but I don't think a single "low timer" was. The accident didn't involve low timers, either.
>>>>For the record Phree,
> The organizers did cut people and they did turn people away, even though they were short the 300 >people
> they wanted to set a new record. Safety was very important to all of the participants and organizers.
> Jumpers at SDC and across the country were doing "big ways" all season (and the previous season as >well)
> in preparation for the event, and skills of all the skydivers who wanted on the attempt were being
> evaluated constantly. If you couldn't cut it, if you weren't a team player, if you had 1000 jumps, but not
> enough "big way" experience, you didn't get on, plain and simple. Did the organizers do what they could >to lure Jerry Bird and others to the event? Of course they did! But the 200 jump wonders who showed up >with their D licenses were politely but firmly turned away.

[Jumperpaula 0]

Quote

I have mixed feelings about the quest for a world record 300 way

Ok, advise for a 20-way sunset load jumper, ...maybe ready to try a formation load...then USPA cut's the Silver Falcon Award (36-way) with the Falcon and the Eagle.
I have all the others, now Im moving on and they are portraying the attitude of "being able to do a 36-way isn't worthy of an award anymore"... Big way takes the most skill, thought process, experience, planning, execution...... Im in amazement and humbled by just watching them.
So, is your first 36 way...just no big deal anymore..?
Fly Your Slot !

[tigra 0]

Paula,
Your first 36 way IS a big deal. But do you really need an award to tell you that?? I have a photo on my desk of my first completed 44 way. That picture (and the feeling when I landed ) mean more to me than any award or certificate that the USPA might send me. I guess for me, the USPA awards don't mean as much as one of my peers or mentors telling me I did a good job, or me KNOWING I did a good job.
I'd like to see and do more sequential big ways. 5 point 20 ways, 4 point 40 ways. Build it, fly it and turn points! Now, that's relative work!

[billvon 2,396]

>I find the big formations that are being built now days fascinating. I'm just wondering if they are worth the risk involved.
For me, yes. You can ask that question of any skydiving specialty. Is it worth exceeding the rated limits on your gear just so you can freefly? Is it worth intentionally giving yourself a main parachute malfunction just so you can do tandem? Is it worth risking getting kicked, punched and taken out by AFF students? Isn't it stupid to intentionally entangle yourself with someone else to do CRW?
Each one has its risks. I am safer making a BASE jump off the NRGB than trying to freefly with three new freeflyers, but that doesn't equate to a blanket statement that freeflying is unsafe. The last Kate and Tony 120 way I was on was safer than several Skydive Chicago 60-ways I have been on - including a few that were all men plus the women on the women's attempt bench, thus _guaranteeing_ that they had problems on big ways. It's all in how it's organized, who's involved, what the attitude on the DZ is, a million different factors.
-bill von

[quade 3]

Geeze Bill, it took you -forever- to get into this thread!
quade
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[Aneurysm 0]

I find it scary to think of someone doing a 17way with less than 100 jumps, although admitedly I closed an 18 way on about 110 jumps.
On the world record thing, I feel that to get a 300way together you should have the 300 best skydivers in the world, personally I feel that any triple digit jump should have the same laws as bladerunning. 1000 jumps minimum.
Blue skies
A poor guy who hasn't jumped in over a year...
:(

[billvon 2,396]

>Geeze Bill, it took you -forever- to get into this thread!
Sorry, been working a lot. About the only time I have for posting now is when I'm flying.
-bill von

[Jumperpaula 0]

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I guess for me, the USPA awards don't mean as much as one of my peers or mentors telling me I did a good job, or me KNOWING I did a good job.

True, but isn't the award program to establish goals and direction in your discipline. What are we saying about Relative Work to the new students, or Newly D licensed jumpers?
Fly Your Slot !

[quade 3]

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I find it scary to think of someone doing a 17way with less than 100 jumps . . .

Depends on the oganizer, the skill set of all the jumpers, the drop zone culture . . .
I'll agree that if you are used to a small Cessna DZ and only have 100 C-182 jumps, then visiting a larger DZ and getting invited on a 20-way out of a Twin Otter will probably be pretty intimidating. Under those conditions, it probably -should- be imtimidating and it -might- be a better idea to back out and maybe do an 8-way first. Working your way up over the course of a weekend.
However, If you started at a larger DZ, then you could easily have several jumps leading up to 20-ways well before your 100th jump. I'm not saying they'd all be pretty multi-point 20-ways, but certainly fun.
Neither approach is better than the other. I see it as a matter of having the -opportunity- to learn the skills.
As for the larger stuff, when you get to that level, the actual jump numbers are almost meaningless in terms of skill level. It's the skill of the jumper that matters far more. Like I've said before, no organizer is going to have you on a +100-way without knowing you can do it. It just wouldn't make much sense. Forget the safety issue for a minute -- it hurts their reputation if the thing doesn't build and they'll have 99 other pissed off jumpers.
For a 300-way, every organizer would -ONLY- want the best jumpers they could get their hands on.
quade
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[skytodd 0]

I've found it good practice to make sure I am not over anyones back at pull time. If everyone does the same it would only seem that midairs would become a thing of the past.