LawnDart21 0 #51 February 8, 2002 Now that I've had all my morning coffee.......ha ha ha One thing I think we should also discuss here is that alot of people look at the coaches rating as a "Mini-AFF rating", they feel the coach should have superior all around flying skills, the equivalent to that of an AFF instructor. But we all know that's not the case. USPA designed the coaches rating to help prequalify future AFF JM candidates with the necessary practice to become ready for AFF. I approach each of my coach jumps as a learning expeirence, each jump I am learning more and more about becoming an AFF instructor, as that is my ultimate goal. So, while everyone is (justifiably) going to have different air skill expectations of a coach, it's definitely needs to be acknowledge that just like the student, the coach learns on each jump too, how to be a better coach. I've learned alot from the students I coach. Am I a solid coach, absolutely, I'd put my coaching up against anyone's critique, but am I an AFF quality coach or flyer, unfortunetaley not yet, but I'm getting closer and closer each coach jump I make. And that is my overall goal. So while I can certainly see where a low jump number of a coach might raise an eyebrow (certainly a valid point you raised Skreamer among general concerns), I'd jst also look at the coach as a student as well, a student of teaching, learning to teach each jump he or she makes. I mean the course has prerequites and the air evaluation isn't an automatic pass, so, to use Clay as an example, if he meets the qualifying criteria and is able to pass the air evaluations then according to USPA, he's qualified to coach. I mean, there have been a ton of posts about expeirence versus jump numbers on here, and while it's a great barometer for general ability, we have to acknowledge the possibility that there may be a low jumper out there that has the skill to coach, and in this case, if Clay has teh skills and passed the course, I say it's okay. Just my coffee induced .02."I live to EFS"Tom"I live to EFS" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #52 February 8, 2002 Clay, I was never commenting on your skills. I haven't jumped with you or seen any video footage, so I have no idea how good you are after 125 jumps. That wasn't my point, my point was that from a safety point of view I think it would be better if you were more experienced (in RW). The only way to get that experience is by making more jumps (doing RW).As for your S/L JM reference - that is not really relevant. A S/L JM can't lose altitude awareness and take a student low, to name just one scenario that comes to mind. When I got RW coaching it was off a 21 year old skydiver who happened to have 1 200 jumps. I was only paying his slot - there is no way I would've paid someone with 125 jumps slot to coach me. Doesn't matter how good you are right now, you just don't have the experience in the sport that someone with say 400 jumps has.If you really want to help newbies, why don't you just pay your own slot, fun jump with them and give them some pointers afterwards? Thats what happens at my DZ and it is made clear to the newbie that they are responsible for their own ass - it is not AFF. This sport is expensive enough to get into, I am sure you had experienced jumpers help you out when you were learning who paid their own way.Will"Don't die until you're dead" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #53 February 8, 2002 Let's not get wrapped around the axle too much either. Remember what I am coaching too. We are talking about basic body flight, exits, and safety. I'm not trying to turn these people into Golden Knights. Just help them become a reasonably safe and competent skydiver. "I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #54 February 8, 2002 OK then Remi, how about the following :THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THAT SOMEONE WITH 125 MOSTLY FREEFLY JUMPS SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO STRAP ON A CAMERA AND COACH LOW(ER) TIME JUMPERS IN RW!!!There, how do you like them apples?"Don't die until you're dead" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #55 February 8, 2002 Jeez, thanks Clay! here I am sticking up for ya, and you lay this out there"The coaches aren't doing any more or less." OUCH!! LOL!!!!!I'll have you know, coaches must be able to spell the alphabelt in greek, backwards, while holding a lit match, no wait a second, that's a fraternity thing, never mind that! For the record though, coach dives are serious, involved dives. Docking, fall rate control, forward/backward motion, orbiting, side sliding are all involved. I've heard the stories about the old time static line ratings where all you had to do was be able to push (the student out the door) to get the rating, and while the coaches rating isn't exactly saving the world, it is a wee bit more involved than a S/L coach.......LOLBesides like anything,coaching is what you make it, you get out of it what you put in."I live to EFS"Tom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #56 February 8, 2002 "A S/L JM can't lose altitude awareness and take a student low, to name just one scenario that comes to mind"Sure they can...they jump with students on 10,30, and 60 sec delays. They don't stop after the 5 static lines."why don't you just pay your own slot, fun jump with them and give them some pointers afterwards"I do......when I get the chance. Which isn't very often because there are so many other people with loads more experience than I have doing the same thing. I'm not going to tell a student that they should jump with me instead of Doug Glover with 10,000 jumps...."I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #57 February 8, 2002 I told myself I would drop the coaching discussion, but now I'm upset.Someone who has 125 freefly jumps should not be a USPA RW coach. That much we can all disagree on.What really pisses me off id Clay's attitude that the students are just off AFF and don't know any better. What the hell, they don't know if they are getting good coaching, so fuck 'em. First of all, they do know if they are getting good coaching or not. Just because they are students doesn't make them stupid. Secondly, a coach does a lot more than just sit there and watch the student pull. You have to be rock solid on exit, fall exactly straight down, maintain a constant fallrate (or match theirs depending on the drill) and be watching and mentally recording everything that happens. It is easy to jump with a new person, it is hard to coach them properly. Thirdly, your attiutude sucks. I got flamed hard for suggesting I get paid for coaching work, and you're suggesting you get paid for ripping someone off. Where's the justice?I wish you good luck in your endeavors. If you do get your rating (and it sounds unlikely) you will quickly become the least popular coach on the DZ and students will avoid working with you.Oh, and strapping a camera on your head will make coaching even harder.- Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #58 February 8, 2002 "I've heard the stories about the old time static line ratings where all you had to do was be able to push (the student out the door) to get the rating"Well....this must be a bias thing then. I started jumping at Raeford with Chuck and the GB club. They didn't just push you out the door. They took you from that static line all the way to the Otter. Coaching you on your free fall skills. Doing Drill Dives. Turning points with you etc etc etc. Making sure you had the RW skills to survive that next 4, 6, or 8 way. So from that perspective...I don't see much difference. Maybe my experience was just unusual because the GBSPA and Chuck Blue make have the goal of making Skydivers......not money..."I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #59 February 8, 2002 Post note, all my coaching references/posts were in regards to working with prelicensed jumpers just off AFF to do actual pass or fail ISP skills dives. Once a jumper gets their license, we have a club type deal set up for newbie A license jumpers to get "coached" by more experienced jumpers, like a mentor program, I'm not involved with that part, but it works pretty well from what I see, everyone pays their own slots though. I don't really have an opinion on post license coaching requirements. I just think good judgement should be used in any coaching scenario. Okay, I'm exhausted now, I'm off to lunch !!!! Good Flights to all,"I Live to EFS"Tom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #60 February 8, 2002 QuoteI do......when I get the chance. Which isn't very often because there are so many other people with loads more experience than I have doing the same thing. I'm not going to tell a student that they should jump with me instead of Doug Glover with 10,000 jumps....So if you get this coach rating will you still be paying your own slot?"Don't die until you're dead" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #61 February 8, 2002 "you're suggesting you get paid for ripping someone off."Oh sorry skygod....No thats not at all what I am saying. No students with 7 or 8 AFF jumps don't know much. They usually can't fall straight down, make good turns, or good tracks much less turn a 10 or 15 point 2 way drill dive. However, I never suggested that they were "STUPID" Nice that you know nothing about my background and yet you ass-u-me that I don't know anything about teaching.....I think 6 years as a professional instructor must carry some weight. "I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #62 February 8, 2002 "So if you get this coach rating will you still be paying your own slot?"Read the post above...I haven't decided on that one yet....."I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #63 February 8, 2002 I'm a "post S/L era" skydiver LOL, my DZ hasn'yt done S/L in a few years, I did AFF so it's all I know. so all I know about S/L is what I have heard at bonfires, from the old timers, so when you said that coaches rating is the same as S/L I assumed you were classifying it as a "no brainer" endeavor, which, right or wrong, is how S/L was explained to me at the bonfire. No offense intended on the S/L rating!"I live to EFS"Tom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #64 February 8, 2002 "No offense intended on the S/L rating!"None taken...As I thought.....just a difference in experience.DanG- I think the reason people flamed you is because you are the exact incarnation of what the GBSPA calls an "Elitist Ass" "I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #65 February 8, 2002 hey clay check your email. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #66 February 8, 2002 "hey clay check your email."Ahhh....I can't from here. They have all outside email access blocked. Send it to "[email protected]""I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Geoff 0 #67 February 8, 2002 I think this thread wins the award for "Least relationship between title and content of postings"...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #68 February 8, 2002 you americains suck! Move to canada where they have a proper coach/instructor system! lolRemsterMuff 914 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #69 February 8, 2002 Geoff is BRITISH! And where exactly are you living now Remi? Geeze, you foreigners coming here and stealing our jobs is what is wrong with this country!!!!"Don't die until you're dead" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #70 February 8, 2002 "Move to canada where they have a proper coach/instructor system! lol"What do you need for a coach rating in the BPA? 45,001 jumps, must fly a 50 Sq Ft or less canopy, a DDDD license, and a note from the Queen Mum? "I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #71 February 8, 2002 God dammit Will.. dont you understand anything!Geoff: my reply was a general comment on the thread (I know you probably understood what I meant, unlike pooddle-boy)RemsterMuff 914 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #72 February 8, 2002 Directed to all involved in this little flame fest. Please stop now. Debating an issue is one thing, lowering yourselves to personal attacks is another. Remember, this is not the wreck.Thank you. Have a nice day.pull and flare,lisa--What would Scooby Doo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #73 February 8, 2002 OUCH....that ruler hurts when you slap my knuckles....Anyway....HE started it...What would we do without you Lisa?"I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #74 February 8, 2002 Clay, I dont know about BPA. CSPA has a very progressive system with a C1, C2 rating for sport jumping, and C3 and C4 for competition. They include theory, technical and practical sections. have a read on http://www.cspa.caC1 requirement is 50 jumps, but most need 150 jumps to have the skillsas far as the flame wars, sorry all, and sorry Rob for the blatant highjack...RemsterMuff 914 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #75 February 8, 2002 I was just kidding with you Remi. I know the rest of the world likes to have more "Regulation" in skydiving. We in America like to keep government out of our business...LOL"I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
