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riggerrob

Stand up to lose altitude?

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Has anyone tried standing up to lose altitude?
I am referring to a scenario where you are close to the formation horizontally, but much higher, forcing you to dive almost straight down.
Hint, I am not comfortable with my head down/no loft diving and want to discuss alternatives.

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I love coming to a formation this way. It gives you a complete view of the airspace below you with NO blind spots like HD. You are free to move your head around also...unlike HD which can cause you to turn unless you compensate. As I'm sure you have seen in Crosswind you can get plenty of forward drive in a stand. I like it!!! Much easier to learn too until you get better at HD. The only drawback I guess is if you are good at HD you'll have a better speed range but thats negligeable if you can fly stand up with your arms straight up.
"Houston? That place is full of Crack heads and debutantes."- Hank Hill
Clay

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I know I'm going to be flamed for it... but I do a sit for that exact thing if I'm a late diver. I just leave in a dive, get close, sit to the right point the come in on level. A stand is just too fast of altitude lose and the cork back is unstable. A sit is much better for this.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

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"A stand is just too fast of altitude lose and the cork back is unstable."
Depends on the pilot but yes!! Watch your speed. You pick up ass loads very quickly in a stand. Just practice and flare early on your first couple. Remember...always come on level with the formation at least 15-20 ft off to the side when making a high speed approach. Just in case your judgement is off that day and you shoot by.
"Houston? That place is full of Crack heads and debutantes."- Hank Hill
Clay

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"Wouldn't this body position make it difficult to see traffic behind you - specially on big ways where you aproaching in waves."
Without going back to earth I don't know a body position that will allow you to see behind you. If you want to see people behind you...Spin...you have one hell of a turn rate in a stand...:)"Houston? That place is full of Crack heads and debutantes."- Hank Hill
Clay

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Instead of 15-20 feet, I'd be WAY more likely to do it at like 50-75 feet out if you are that high. 15 feet is just the base or formation sliding a little bit.As for the waves thing, most times you you are that high you did'nt dive down, that means everyone else is already under you so you should'nt need to worry about people being behind you, just under you.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

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I've often thought it would be cool to go head down to a big RW formation as a late-exiter (I wear my FF suit when I do RW, so it's no biggie). I'd kinda worry about zooming past/into the tracking RW folks though.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

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Rob,
What I do in that situation is a little more conservative and a little more controlled. I just tighen up my arch and bring my arms in, make myself "small". Then I can drop straight down fairly quickly. We do a lot of "big ways" at my dz, and if I tried the stand or sit approach, I'm pretty sure I'd be axed off the next load and not asked on another.

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The reason I sit is because I'm able to fall with the few bigways I've been on in a sit and personally.... I'm able to move better in a sit then in most other positions. I learned to fall nearly as slow a a tiny chick in her sit wings in my unaided sit this summer. I'm still a bit on the plus side of 130, but its small enough to deal with for the little amount of time I'm in a sit.
If I could get away with it, I'd like nothing better then to just deploy from a Sit on all my jumps but I know I need stuff like seperation and stuff...
Murphy's Laws of Love - If the person isn't taken, there's a reason for that...

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Yeah, I'm getting scared. If someone used a stand to get down to a big RW formation at my DZ the talking to would be lengthy. In theory it is great, but you can't see directly under you, and you can't see below and behind you, and those are the danger areas. (Sit position is the worst in this regard, totally blind below and behind)
I recommend the RW stable position. Someone else described it: very hard (relaxed muscles) arch, bring your hands in to your chest, and pull your legs up until your toes are still in the wind, but nothing else. You will fall very fast, and still be able to look around comfortably. I use it in hybrids which are falling fast and to keep up with fat tandem masters who hold the drouge.
- Dan G

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"you can't see directly under you, and you can't see below and behind you, and those are the danger areas. (Sit position is the worst in this regard, totally blind below and behind)"
Huh? Can't see below you? I'll buy can't see much behind you...but...If you are tracking forward and down....the only traffic you should be concerned about is...forward and down. If you are worried about people behind you...do a 360 check before you flare. Takes less than 1 second. In fact I think you have far more lee way to move your head around in a sit or stand than you do while in a steep track belly fly. Hence...better visibility. But...I only have 125 jumps...So I don't know shit..right?
"Houston? That place is full of Crack heads and debutantes."- Hank Hill
Clay

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"Only a HARDCORE freeflier would have to ask that"
I couldn't resist!! The only bad part is...I'm having a real crisis right now. With this coach course coming up I realized that I may have to do numerous belly jumps. I guess I can still get a second or two of HD at break off....:)"I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

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Quote

. If you are worried about people behind you...do a 360 check before you flare. Takes less than 1 second. In fact I think you have far more lee way to move your head around in a sit or stand than you do while in a steep track belly fly. Hence...better visibility. But...I only have 125 jumps...So I don't know shit..right?


Clay, if you can exit the plane in the later part of the divers, get in a stand, fall in your quadrant with the formation in sight, do a 360 while still in your stand while again keeping sight of the formation and not blow past the formation or cut off anyone, then you can take my slot anytime....
And for the record, a dive is not a steep track
Remster
Muff 914

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"And for the record, a dive is not a steep track"
Sorry......I'm not up on the belly flying terminology. My only point that whatever it's called you can't turn to look behind without causing some heading trouble. As for the rest of it. Never chased a big way belly fly in a stand. However, I have chased 3, 4, and more Free flyers in a stand and usually don't have a problem catching them. As long as they are staying something close to "still" in the sky......:)"I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

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"I guess I can still get a second or two of HD at break off",
I'm only replying to this because your going for your coaches rating and this may be some useful info to pass on to others.
Going head down, or stand flying, or sit flying at break off, if even for only a few seconds, is a way, way, way bad idea. If your in an RW group and start freeflying at break off, you will drop below the others, they can and will then lose sight of you, what that means for the others you jump with is that they have to now worry abot where you are and if you are gonna open up into them. I was on an 8 way a few months ago, and a visiting jumper went into a stand fly at break off, dropped 500 feet on the rest of us and I basically had to keep him in my sights and wait until he decided to track away so I could then go in another direction. With as much restraint as I could muster, I explained to him the situation and told him it was a bad idea, and if he really needed to freefly, then cool, just to not to do it on RW jumps at break off. He gave me attitude saying (with all of his 67 jumps) "Hey, I tracked away". I asked him if he was absolutely sure that he tracked away from everyone else, and he couldn't answer me, becuase he had no clue in what directions we all went because he went low at break off and we were all above him. so, the moral of the story is do not, ever, ever, ever, intentionally go low by freeflying at the end of an RW formation, you put everyone else in danger above you. Most people that do it will say, I can still see the people above me I'm fine, but the more important question is, can they see you, and the answer is 99 percent of the time no. Wow, I am exhausted.......LOL Enough preaching for me today. I'm getting off the soap box. In all serious though, I;m sure you were just kidding around in that post abot head down for a couple of seconds at break off, I just wanted to get it out on the board, because there really are people out there that do that and put others lives in danger.
Cheers and Beers, Tom

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Actually...yes I was kidding. That would be dangerous in a large group. The only time I do that is on a hybrid when I know others are pulling higher per the dive plan and they know I'm going low. The only Free Flying I will be doing with a belly student is rolling on my back to track away (Clearing the airspace underneath them) and watch them open. I'm not supposed to touch another jumper beyond break off alti (As I understand the "rules") but I would like to watch the entire deployment sequence just in case they do something wrong. That way I can debrief that too.
"I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

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I figured that was the case, but better safe than sorry, right?
As for the coaches syllabus, here's the deal, as to what we were taught. As a coach you are not, at any time, allowed to make contact with the students rig. Even if you think the student is gonna be a no pull and you want to dump him or her out, the coaches rating allows zero contact with the rig in the air. (Every coach and AFF instructor that I have ever talked with, has said they'd f--k the rules and try to save the student if it were a life and death situation, so take that part for what it's worth). Deployments are great to observe and huge learning asset. I jump my vidiot gear with coach jumps to film the students specifically to catch thier deployments. It really helps them to see the process first hand. The only problem I have found when I do that is that if they go low, I tend to go low with them. Typically, if they open at say 4000ft, I'm open by 3300, but if they go lower, like say 3500ft, I'm opening at 2700ft, which is a little lower than i prefer. The good part about video is that I base a huge part of their pass or fail weight on altitude awareness, so I'll say, "pick an altitude to open at", let's say they pick 4000ft. Then when i video them I stick my altimeter in front of the camera duriing their deployment so I can show them exactly what altitude they pulled at. One student was like, "I dumped at 4200ft definitely." On the video, he was throwing out at 3300ft. Busted!
"I live to EFS"
Tom

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Good plan! "Gotta go to K-Mart....Gotta get a camera" I definately need to get a camera for this student stuff. They will get so much more out of it. Hell, video has made me finally decide to break down and buy a jumpsuit. I finally decided that it's physically impossible to sit fly properly with pant legs inflated...LOL :)"I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

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