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bsrodeo540

Chest strap and safety

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I have a question regarding loosening a chest strap. I am not doing anything crazy, just practicing stalls and flat turns, that kind of things, and loosening my chest strap to the max (without taking it completely off). In the event of a chop, does it give greater probability of falling out of the harness if opening in sub-optimal position (e.g. head-down)?

Sometimes when I do full toggle stalls, with uneven toggle input it would give me linetwists which I was able to clear no problem so far. But it is always in the back of my mind, what if I can't and will need to chop?
Every life comes with a death sentence. Until then, who's in charge?

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bsrodeo540

.... I am not doing anything crazy, just practicing stalls and flat turns...
....
Sometimes when I do full toggle stalls, with uneven toggle input it would give me linetwists which I was able to clear no problem so far. But it is always in the back of my mind, what if I can't and will need to chop?



Just for my understanding (and aside of the topic of loosening a cheststrap):
stalls with uneven toggle input and resulting linetwists?
Not crazy?

Okay, flat turns are good to know ..
But I thought that stalling and twisting is gone, since the videos from Wally Gubbins are out of style ...
--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

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TommyBotten

Add to your list that the cutaway and reserve handle will likely move from the position you know and have trained for and further back.



That's a good point, however that I am less concerned about since this is something that can be rehearsed (as Brian mentions in the video). I am not sure I can rehearse "not falling out of my harness" part.
Every life comes with a death sentence. Until then, who's in charge?

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Hajo

stalls with uneven toggle input and resulting linetwists? Not crazy?



intentional stall, unintentional uneven input and linetwists..

Hajo

I thought that stalling and twisting is gone, since the videos from Wally Gubbins are out of style ...



Sorry, I don't get the reference.. I actually don't know if it's uneven toggle input or something else.. I used to do full stalls no problem and fly my canopy backwards (we called it "butterfly") until bored or low. On my current canopy, which is admittedly smaller then the others I tried it on, I get consistent surges of the canopy to the right (right side of the tail stalls and goes backwards before the left one, so asymmetrical stall resulting in the linetwists). I actually try to pay attention to make my input even, however get the same result every time. Here's a video that is not mine but I get exactly the same thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWlXR0w_meo

And coming back to the chest strap thing, is that a valid concern and if it is, how to minimize/eliminate that risk?
Every life comes with a death sentence. Until then, who's in charge?

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bsrodeo540

I used to do full stalls no problem and fly my canopy backwards (we called it "butterfly") until bored or low.



I would highly recommend to stop doing that. Unless by "low" you mean "low to be comfortable doing stalls", instead of "low" as in "get ready to land". Toggle stall recovery is not too predictable, particularly in smaller canopies, as you are seeing.

bsrodeo540

In the event of a chop, does it give greater probability of falling out of the harness if opening in sub-optimal position (e.g. head-down)?



You are unlikely to be head down because of line twists. But of course loosening your chest strap means that you can move more inside the harness and make falling out more likely (still unlikely though). The questions for me are: Why are you regularly doing stalls out of boredom? And why don't you do intentional stalls with the chest strap tightly fastened? I just loose my chest strap after I know I'll be stable seating in the harness for the rest of the ride (ie: that's the last thing I do during my opening routine, right after popping the toggles). I would be uncomfortable otherwise, because of the increased risk of falling out and because of the added difficulty to find my cutaway and reserve handles in case of a malfunction (locked brake for instance).

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Deimian, my line of though is exactly like yours as I too loosen my chest strap only after popping my toggles as a last step and exactly for the same reasons. Although technically even with brake line problems (depending on severity and my canopy behavior of course) I should be able to pilot and land my canopy on rear risers, I am not yet comfortable with the technique and this is also in my list of things to practice on.

As for practicing stalls, I am not doing it "out of boredom". I am getting more into canopy piloting and this is a standard exercise you should be able to do on any new canopy you are flying. The only thing I am not so sure about is whether I should take it to the extreme and fully stall my canopy (which results in uneven recovery and possibility of linetwists) or simply get my canopy to the stall point to feel where it is and get it back flying right away without fully stalling it. My understanding was that I should be able to perform a controlled full stall of any canopy I am piloting but I might be wrong.

And yes, of course by "low" I mean "lowest safe altitude". I stop all messing around at 600 m.
Every life comes with a death sentence. Until then, who's in charge?

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Deimian

And why don't you do intentional stalls with the chest strap tightly fastened?



Sorry, forgot to answer this part. Well, I am trying to do all my canopy exercises with my wing/harness setup being the same as my landing configuration. You are practicing stalls to drive into your muscle memory exactly where that point is and not to overdo with it when performing your landing. My stall point with my chest strap tight might be a bit different.

Also, I find with my chest strap lose I have less likelihood of linetwists, or at least less severe linetwists. The linetwists I get are not as severe as on the video mentioned above and I kick out of those much faster, and that could be different if my risers were closer together.

There are a few other reasons why you might possibly need to chop a canopy that opened and flew normally, even without deliberate stalls, and since I am flying my canopy with my chest strap lose I was wondering about the risk of falling out of the harness if this happens.
Every life comes with a death sentence. Until then, who's in charge?

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I am a Mr. Nobody, but from my perspective I don't think it is necessary to repeatedly stall your canopy in every jump. Your original post came across as it is something you do regularly. But maybe I misunderstood you.

The target of the stalling exercises is to know where is the stall point of your canopy so you don't get there close to the ground. This is the value of that exercise. Once the canopy stalls there isn't much you can practice (besides recovering), so if you hold it for long it will be a waste time and altitude that you would better off practicing other things. I think it is a very valuable exercise, but I don't see value in taking the exercise to the extreme. But again, I am nobody.

In any case, I see no reason to loosen your chest strap if you are going to practice stalls. I rather be tightly strapped if I am stalling my canopy. You have very little to lose by keeping it tight, and a lot to loose if things go south with a loose chest strap.

Quote

Although technically even with brake line problems (depending on severity and my canopy behavior of course) I should be able to pilot and land my canopy on rear risers, [...]



That's risky, even if you are familiar with normal rear risers landing. Broken brake lines is one thing, because you can apply symmetrical input to both risers. But if just one brake is stuck you'll need asymmetrical inputs (toggle in one side and rear riser on the other) which are way more difficult to get right. Besides that, you'll need to flight your whole pattern in brakes, so you'll have way less power in your flare. The whole situation would qualify for me as a severe problem, and I would take my chances with my reserve. Others might evaluate it when they face the situation, but if they take too long evaluating the problem they'll lose precious altitude. I think it is wise to think about it before facing it.

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bsrodeo540


Sorry, forgot to answer this part. Well, I am trying to do all my canopy exercises with my wing/harness setup being the same as my landing configuration.



We are overlapping our answers ;). You are right, but I don't think it pays off. Unless you have a small canopy the behaviour won't change enough to warrant the increased risk of loosening your chest strap when practicing intentional deep stalls. IMO.

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bsrodeo540

You are practicing stalls to drive into your muscle memory exactly where that point is and not to overdo with it when performing your landing.



... but that's not how stalls work though. A "stall point" is a moot concept. There is no point. It's a curve where on one axis you have your angle of attack and on another axis you have the airspeed of the canopy...

For example if you suffer a low collapse it may be beneficial to apply more toggle input than what would produce a stall at a slower airspeed in order to gain necessary lift through deflection.

I would not do full stalls with chest strap loose. Skydiving canopies are not designed to recover from stalls gracefully (since they are never actually stalled except when on or near the ground). Lots of different ways things can go wrong...

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+1
good explanation.

most of us think about stall in the picture of slowing the canopy more and more until it collapses.
but stall is dynamic as you explained.
--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

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