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shadeland

Pilot (9-cell) and Flare

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I've had a Pilot 168, and I currently have a Pilot 150 and 132.

The openings are about medium (not super hard, but not super soft) but consistent. They're pretty trouble free and forgiving of bad body position. I've spun up my 150 real bad and it flew straight. I spun up my 132 once and it turned a bit, but I was able to kick out without any trouble. They're shallow trimmed, so they get back from really long spots easily. They're great for bigways.

My problem is the flare. The flare on my old 168 (1.1) and my 150 (1.25) had a pretty lousy flare. I've probably got about 200-300 jumps on those two. If it was a no-wind day, I'm almost always sliding in. During the night record last year, I used my Pilot 150 since it was my biggest canopy, but I kept slamming into the hard Arizona desert.

I started jumping a Crossfire 2 129 (put about 500 jumps on that) a while ago in my main rig, and the flare was night and day compared to the Pilot. The Crossfire flare is strong. Very strong. I recently downsized to a Crossfire 3 109 and the flare on that is also phenomenal.

I also have a Pilot 132 (1.4), and the flare on that is... phenomenal. Maybe not quite as good as my Crossfires, but it's still really, really good. Plenty of stopping power, and plenty of room at the bottom end. It was like flying a completely different canopy.

My question to you all, who have Pilots (the 9-cell variety, though chime in if you have a 7-cell) at various wing loadings:

What's your wing loading, and how would you describe the flare?

A couple of friends of mine have noticed the same: At about 1.4, the flare gets awesome. But I don't have a large enough data set to rule out line trims (my brake lines might be too long), canopy age, and/or differences in canopy production runs. And of course, there's pilot error.

So what say you?

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I jump a Pilot 124 at 1.4WL right now and the flare is amazing. I start with a bit of brakes to plane it out and after there is plenty of power to fully shut it down at the end. Before this I jumped a Pilot 188, Pilot 168, Pilot 150 and a brief few jumps on a Sabre 2 135 and I didn't like the flare on the sabre compared to the Pilots. Never had any problems with the flare on the larger sizes either.

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I had a Pilot 168 ZPX (@1.14) as my wing for about 50 jumps, and I never had any problems with the flare. It was perfectly easy to stand up my landings, even as I switched between Sabre2 170 and the Pilot, despite the significant difference in glide steepness. Never had any trouble on the rentals I put a few jumps on when I was but a wee skydiver either.
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I jumped a Pilot 150, 132, 124 and 117. with WL of 1.23, 1.4, 1.49 and 1.58.

The flare was absolutely fine on all of them except the 117, where it was ok. I didn't have much basis for comparison when I jumped those Pilots.

What I did notice though is that the main power from the flare was deep in the toggle stroke, so if your brake lines have been lengthened, you can miss out on some of the power giving the impression of a shit flare. That was the case on either the 132 or 124 that I had. Flare wasn't as good as I thought it would be, checked the brake lines and they had been lengthened by a previous owner, I got them set back, and flare was good again.

Doesn't help I'm short so have proportionally short arms too!

The 117 only gave me ok flare, plenty enough to land comfortably, but with more running off than the others, if I remember right. It's been a few years now.

I changed to various fully eliptical canopies from there (Odyssey, Crossfire2) and yeah, the flare power of those was better than the 117 at least.
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I agree with the posters above. I've flown Pilot 210, 188 and 168, all had good flares. However... I did shorten the brake lines on my 210 after just a couple jumps, my 188 was brand new and didn't need it.

Can you induce a full stall with toggle input only?

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I'm a new jumper with a Pilot 188 ZPX at 1.06 loading. I bought the canopy used with 450 jumps but new HMA lines. The first few jumps, there was a lot of slack at the top and a weak flare. I had the rigger take off 2". It's still weak--I'm basically at my hips before it levels off, and there's not much below that for the final punch. And I can't stall it in toggles--even after the shortening. I can stall it if I grab the top of the toggle but not my normal hand position in the bottom of the loop.

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I have a pilot 117 (1.8) as a temp wingsuit canopy until my winx gets here. It's not ideal but I needed something that could fit into my swoop rig.

The flare on it is fairly impressive to me, every time I've jumped it, I did a 270, which picked me up about 30' off the ground and it still had enough flare to run out the resulting surge into the ground.

FWIW, I bought the canopy off a woman who probably weighs about 130ish out the door, who got rid of it because it's terrible flare. I think the correlation between wingloading is accurate. I doubt pilot error, since she's on a cf2 109 now and having no issues landing it.

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Can you stall the canopy with a deep flare (done at altitude, of course). If not, it may be that your brake lines are too long (as others have suggested). I have a 188 (1:1) and it was a problem with mine when I first got it.

You could try taking a wrap on your toggles (effectively shortening the brake lines a bit) to see if your landing flares improve; and if so, consider shortening the brake lines permanently.

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I have been jumping pilots since around jump 40

188>168>150>140

Majority of my jumps are on the 168 (1.1 WL ) and then the 140 (1.3 WL)

I agree with other posters that the stopping power is right at the bottom of the toggle stroke. Occasionally when I have a shitty landing I need to slide its usually from not getting a deep enough flare.

I am fairly athletic and definetly run out stuff that other people wouldn't so I think I have been getting by with longer toggles than is optimal. Holding toggles in full deep brakes will only bring on a stall after a few seconds.

I have been doing 90 front riser turns and any shorter on the brake lines I think the tail deformation during the turn will start becoming an issue so I am not changing them.

That said the canopy can be landed with significantly less brake input from a well executed turn so I can totally understand the higher wing loadings giving a better flare.

I have only a few jumps on steeper trimmed elliptical canopies but they are definitely easier to flare and land than the pilots with less input required to plan out and shut down.

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I have a brand new (2016) Pilot 188 ZPX loaded at about 1.15:1. I have the same problem, it is the worst flaring canopy I have ever flown. I will try to shorten the lines, but they do not seem too short to me. In my experience, having 1 or 2 more inches should not make or break the flare. I am wondering if they made some changes to the line trim design or something recently because when I bought the rig I chose the Pilot based on so many good reviews. I initially thought I was just rusty because I was coming back from a long break from the sport, but now I know otherwise.

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sudo242

In my experience, having 1 or 2 more inches should not make or break the flare.



I had an old Sabre 1 loaded at about 1.25. 2 inches was the difference between dragging my ass every landing (I could arrest the vertical descent, but had nothing left for stoping the horizontal movement) or soft tip toeing every time.

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sudo242

I have a brand new (2016) Pilot 188 ZPX loaded at about 1.15:1. I have the same problem, it is the worst flaring canopy I have ever flown. I will try to shorten the lines, but they do not seem too short to me. In my experience, having 1 or 2 more inches should not make or break the flare. I am wondering if they made some changes to the line trim design or something recently because when I bought the rig I chose the Pilot based on so many good reviews. I initially thought I was just rusty because I was coming back from a long break from the sport, but now I know otherwise.



People don't leave bad reviews. They like their gear and rave about it. Read the reviews of the Pulse - a canopy I have yet to see anyone land well consistently. When I see someone demo one I know I'm about to be treated to some kind of funny looking landing. ... but if you read the reviews you'll think it's awesome.

I've jumped a number of canopies loaded at 1.05 to almost 1.5, and some have more flare than others and have to be run out more but I can't say I had one that had poor flare. But then again, you hear people complaining about the same handful of canopies over and over again as having poor flare...

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The first canopy I bought - and put almost 400 jumps on - was a Pilot 188 ZPX, loaded at 0.93. I bought it after demoing a Pilot 188 directly from Aerodyne, and that canopy flew and landed so well compared to the rentals I'd been using that I was sold.

Yes, the power in the flare, at least at those lighter wing loadings, is WAY far into the bottom of the stroke. I had the new one hooked up to the risers for my rig and (thankfully) made a hop-and-pop to test it out. There was so much excess brake line that the tail didn't deflect until my hands were past my shoulders, and no matter what I did I couldn't get more than the weakest feeling of pick-up in a practice flare. Finally I just took a wrap on each hand and flew it that way, and landed it that way - still sliding it in. And then went to my canopy coach to figure out what was up.

The Aerodyne demo risers were 22". The Aerodyne toggles use a metal pin instead of a lower tuck-tab. My VSE risers were 19" (I'm 5'6" and that was what was recommended for me by the coach I asked at the time; now I use 21" or 22" risers which I like much better). My toggles were also made by VSE. VSE toggles are set with a narrowed piece that pinches together to form the lower tuck-tab. When you unstow the toggles, you end up with an extra two inches as that section unfolds. So all together, thanks to the differences between my risers and toggles versus Aerodyne's, I effectively had an extra 5" of brake line in there. We had the rigger take out 3" and then stitch the expanding part of the toggle together. Even then, the canopy never flared quite as well as the demo. I debated having more taken out of the brake lines, but I didn't want to affect the front risers, so I left it. As I still couldn't stall it without taking a wrap, I probably could've taken out more without any issues. Instead I just got really used to always sliding it in, unless I had a good 8+ mph headwind.

I know people who jump smaller Pilots which they load much more heavily, and they all say the flare is excellent. But it's hard to know if it's the wing loading or simply the size of the canopy.

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Update: This past weekend was a busy weekend and I didn't get to look at the brake settings much.

However I did put two jumps on it (my other jumps were on my Crossfire 3 109). The winds were pretty good (10 MPH) which makes weak flares seem like good flares.

The skies were busy so I didn't spend much time looking up, but I did notice that I had deflection pretty much at 1 or 2 inches of toggle. This weekend I'll try to get some more time in, possibly a high pull.

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For reference, I've recently been demoing a Sabre 2 170 after almost 200 jumps on Pilot 210, 188 and 168. The Sabre 2 flare feels mushy by comparison, and is even lower in the stroke than the Pilot. Still plenty effective once you get used to the difference, but definitely a different flare.

I would almost say the Pilot has more power higher in the stroke to level off your glide, but the Sabre 2 possibly has a little more left at the bottom to shut down your forward speed.

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shadeland

Update: This past weekend was a busy weekend and I didn't get to look at the brake settings much.

However I did put two jumps on it (my other jumps were on my Crossfire 3 109). The winds were pretty good (10 MPH) which makes weak flares seem like good flares.

The skies were busy so I didn't spend much time looking up, but I did notice that I had deflection pretty much at 1 or 2 inches of toggle. This weekend I'll try to get some more time in, possibly a high pull.



I know some people have so short brake settings that they're practically flying on (some) brakes all the time which kills the speed. Then they complain about a poor flare, most i've seen got fixed by adjusting the steering line length so that the canopy can actually go to full flight and suddenly, a lot more flare power...

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My understanding, particularly with the pilot and similar designs, was that the (relatively) poor flare power was mostly due to the trim of the canopy. Being that pilots are trimmed pretty flat (Pulse as well) means there's not much AoA delta to put into flare. Always flying in brakes isn't a great idea but, full flight trimmed flat will have a similar result.

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JumpRu

i jumped pilot, really nothing to write home about... this is 10 year old design if you ask me... i think newer things like crossfire3 or tesla - they should have much better flare.



But those aren't comparable canopies to the Pilot - different target market and experience level required.
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shadeland

I would have thought so, but when I jumped a Pilot 132 (1.4WL) the flare was amazing. Also, the Crossfire, with its awesome flare, isn't a steeply trimmed canopy (medium shallow?)



Crossfire is a substantially more aerodynamic design. For the same surface area it has less drag, which equates to more speed.

Similarly 7 cells are usually trimmed super steep but typically will have less flare than your garden variety Sabre2 all other things similar.

There are many variables that affect flare power.

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Another update:

In full flight, there's no deflection. Deflection comes at about about I'd say 3 inches, though I'll have to look at my video to see what the exact value is.

I did a bunch of jumps this weekend on it, with winds from LV to 5 MPH. I didn't wrap the lines, but I did grab the lines just above the toggle, with the toggle just at the heel of my hand. I figure that shortened my brake lines by about 2 inches. There's definitely a more powerful stroke right at the bottom of it, and it didn't stall out. It feels like I might have another inch to go to get the same flare as my 132. I'll try it up high in case it stalls.

I'm learning towards my brake lines are too long. Now to determine how much they need to be shortened.

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Just as a follow up to me last comment (I have a Pilot 188 loaded about 1.2). I had my steering lines shortened by 3.5 inches and it made a huge difference. There is still some slack so it is not flying in brakes at all. The flare is way better now. I am surprised by how much of a difference it made.

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