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freeflyit

Right Rotation Approach Videos...POST HERE!

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I wouldn't want to do my turn from that height but, the video shows his turn isn't super low or anything. He's doing his turn in 4-5 seconds and, his rollout is 4+ seconds every time (in that video, at least) there are are other, more pressing problems for me (given that his actual turn is well represented by that video).

1. Gloves + risers = bad IMO. You can make the argument that you've learnt your gear enough to know where your risers are but *not* when you have to look at your loops for a good couple of seconds in order to start your turn (meanwhile potentially missing unexpected traffic).
2. The style of turn has the potential to lead to being low - if I get my pattern wrong, do a longer lead in to hit my gates, my already fast turn doesn't allow me to speed up at all. This means the person would need very good pattern discipline.
3. Oversteer in a turn that low will give you *very* little room to recover - you'd better know how to bail
4. Impinging on main landing area on one of those turns...
5. I'd hope the chap in question, with so few jumps, would have an assload of hop and pops and, a bunch of coaching and, those coaches would have given him advice on how to do that turn

That's not to say that someone who's motivated can't be safe and, well trained by 600 jumps on a VK96 @ 2.6 but that would make them an outlier.

Back to the main point: the turn from that height is clearly possible and, seems to be reasonably not sketchy. The question is whether the person in question has the experience to know when they can't make that turn and, how close they are to minimum turn height with their "normal" turn. Personally I want to make my turn from as close to max as possible to give myself more time to recognize and handle mistakes so, I've built my turn that way.

Thank you for posting your 450ºs, I'm starting to do my calculations for doing 450ºs so, it's nice to have the visuals. :)

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It really depends on the particular swoop philosophy one favours for different jumps. For dedicated hopnpops/comptraining I start 450s at about 1200ft with a comp velo 84 at 2.5 and 2000' msl but for funjumps and teamtraining this and even 100ft lower is often my starting altitude for a 810 harness only turn as well.

It's also dependend on whether you are a natural recoverer or a batsch/manow type of crazy mofo. Rears early and sigificant input can shorten your recovery like crazy. 2.5s from end of rollout to water contact even on Petras/PI's is nothing out of the ordinary.

So "low" is actually quite individual. What is low for you or high for somebody else is only comparable if the turn style is more or less the same.

That being said, 710ft doesn't leave much margin :)
-------------------------------------------------------

To absent friends

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Hi Daniel,

I have been wearing gloves because I find that my palms get dry and the toggle feels slippy in my hand. I've done many jumps with and without, personal preference is with gloves.
I do look at my risers because I can't seem to get my loops to pop out enough to just grab it without looking. I'm looking at getting that mod'd to stop that from happening. It's been a pain in my ass since I got them.
I do have low jump numbers compared to most that are canopy piloting, that said, I realized at about 160 jumps that I liked canopy more than freefall. I haven't done a freefall jump in 350+ jumps.. hop n pops only for this kid. Just under 200 this season so far.

I feel that coaching is necessary for CP. Start early and start right. I have taken a pile of flight-1 (301/302/309's) coaching and tell everyone asking about HP landings to get proper coaching. It also helps having 2 close buddies on the Canadian CP team that I jump with every weekend.

I get a lot of raised eyebrows and comments when people as jump numbers, canopy and WL... Most recently I was at Canadian Nationals, where I was the most junior jumper in intermediate CP by 1000+ jumps. It's like being in grade school wanting to hangout with the highschool kids. I have a long, long way to go, just trying to stay safe, be on the right path and keep on learning.

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Hey, thanks for listening and taking my comments as intended. :)
Based on your video, I'd say that your gloves are the difference between getting your loops with or without looking. You can have your rigger add some stiffer material (I don't remember what they actually add, I just know it's a thing) to keep your loops open wider. As far as wearing gloves or not, plenty of people do it, I prefer no gloves personally (ever! lol) but again, plenty of people manage it. The contention here is not that you can't do that in comp (you want to train what you compete, obvs) but that, you're open to missing canopy traffic while you're fiddling around with your loops. If you, and the people around you, are comfortable with you not looking at traffic that low to the ground (and close the the main) then again, I can't really suggest you shouldn't be doing it. In a comp you're less likely to have issues with that obviously but, at a DZ, I never want to assume that I'm safe because I'm in a slightly different area.

Sounds like you're doing what you need to do and, I wouldn't presume to suggest I know better than flight-1 coaches and competition CP peeps. I'm a fun jumper who likes to swoop so, my turn is built to support that - I'm likely never going to dial a turn in to the same level as a CP person, I want my turn to be smooth and efficient, not maximized in any way. A good friend of mine did exactly what you are doing - only CP stuff and was on a Hybrid Leia 74 with similar jumps to you so, more power to you. #PowerControlSafety #SoFPiDaRF ;)

My only suggestion, for what it's worth, is be careful with that turn you've built, there's not a lot of room to move.

I'd be interested to see what your minimum turn height is compared to what you've listed above.

Just to not be an keyboard warrior, *all* my jumps are online and you'll see I'm *far* from perfect... :D https://vimeo.com/danielcroft/videos

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ya man, I see this all as advice and information to process and implement as needed... A good friend of mine, Mitchell Whyte suggested I watch your vids for freefly and swooping so, I've been following you on Vimeo for a while and have been watching your vids... . Also notice you chime in more than others on this forum. It's always a little nerve racking posting personal stuff as the internet can turn ugly and everyone is an armchair athlete telling you what you did wrong and why. I appreciate the approach you took. Too many people respond to a post with their ego involved and feel the need to get their backup and get defensive. I've had enough hits and misses and eaten shit enough to understand there is no room for that. Criticism and advice is always welcomed.

At present my MinMA = 680' (that's if I don't choose to bail and go to a 90 instead.. if I'm there, it's because I screwed up my setup) TMA = 710-730 depending on time of day and MaxMA = 760. These numbers may shift as I grow this this wing...for now, 710-730 is putting me where I want with lots of power at the gates.

I've tried to redneck hack my loops by putting some gaffers tape at the top to pinch them closed, which pops them out a wee bit. It helps a little, but not like regular non-Louie loops. I'm gonna get my rigger to put some yellow cutaway cable in the loops and get them poppin'. He's done this for a buddy and it's working well.

For the traffic, I completely understand what you're saying! It only takes a few seconds for a canopy to come from nowhere. If a non-regular HnP'er is on the load, we make sure to explain that they land in the order they exit and to stay away from the lane. This is rare tho, nobody likes to go low (182) when we have the KingAir to take them to altitude in just a few minutes.

Our landing area isn't the best for 15 canopies in the sky and 2 or 3 trying to swoop around the bellyfliers (fuckers can't follow a pattern and get in the way all the time ;) ). This is why 5k is my ceiling :)

Hopefully with the loop mod, I can stop with the lookup and be more aware before/during initiating.

I appreciate your comments and any advice you're willing to share!!


Scott

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TommyBotten

Even with a quick rotation, no surge/double fronts it _sounds_ a bit low...

A few right hand 450s from my first half of 2016. No swoop training jumps as my competition/training turn is left. My setup is 1350 for the VK-PS (71@2.8) and about 100 feet lower for the regular VK(75@2.6).

https://youtu.be/PSd1LH6zl8E



I'm not in the competition scene so I'm just curious why you train left for comps? Are you required to fly a left hand pattern in a competition setting?

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I know Mitchell, Kozak and maybe a few more from your crew. I doubt you followed their advice when it came to buying that VK. Everyone so far ahead of the progression recommendations has a story they tell themselves. Fact is, 2.6 is an outrageous WL for anybody with your experience. This is coming from someone who bought a Velo 103 at 700 jumps, so I took the similar risks, here I am 3000 jumps later still jumping 103 VK... not saying something bad will result but it's a red flag.
Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

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I can certainly relate to that. I totally favor RH turns. LH feels awkward and slightly unnatural.

Nice 450's btw. Very patient turns. I'm just now starting to explore them myself. It's a whole different animal for sure. My internal buzzer starts going off to rollout and I still have another 180 degrees to go and the speed is significantly more. Trying to build a new sight picture for it.

Finishing strictly with the harness is also something I'm getting used to but that turn forces you to utilize full harness input to finish the turn because the fronts pressure becomes too much. With a 270, I had enough dig on the fronts that harness input was only used in combination.

Super scary but super fun!

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AdD

I know Mitchell, Kozak and maybe a few more from your crew. I doubt you followed their advice when it came to buying that VK. Everyone so far ahead of the progression recommendations has a story they tell themselves. Fact is, 2.6 is an outrageous WL for anybody with your experience. This is coming from someone who bought a Velo 103 at 700 jumps, so I took the similar risks, here I am 3000 jumps later still jumping 103 VK... not saying something bad will result but it's a red flag.


You definitely have a point, I don't know what the best approach is, though. Given that Scott already has the wing, is already jumping it and, seems to have a consistent turn (given the video we have). If you want to refute his claims that people are ok with where he's at you kind of over-step what's possible in an online forum. For me, I'd want to reach out to those people you two have in common and attempt to address it that way. Fact is, some people are just going to do what they're going to do and you/we can't influence that decision. So, what do you do? I've generally taken the approach of trying to offer useful advice without being too judgmental because that'll generally shut down any chance for a dialog. That's not to say that I don't think it's worth pointing out for the others following along at home to identify the issues but, without some reasoning behind that, we as a community often don't actually make a convincing argument. "You're going to die" isn't rational, especially given that the community is populated by people who often got exactly the same warnings.

I'd personally like to Scott take his turn higher and, slow it down to give himself more room to deal with the inevitable human errors but, I don't know him and, why would he listen to random internet guy anyway? What I can do is try to make a sound argument as to why that approach would be preferable, identify any other issues I can see but, ultimately, you're not going to convince someone that something's broken until they see it themselves. I genuinely hope (SoFPiDaRF jokes aside) that the broken-ness is addressed before people become broken.

This, is waaaaay off topic now, I apologize to peeps who were trying to see right hand turns and have had to wade through yet another "you're going to die" swoop conversation. Scott more than happy to chat further about any of this via a different medium (or, different thread, I don't need privacy) like facebook or whatever.

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