What to do next?

[Deimian 43]

I am looking for some opinions on what should I do next. A bit of background:

-I have 510 jumps.
-I have 4 jumps on my new canopy.
-My progression is Student gear -> Sabre 2 170 -> Sabre 1 150 -> Lotus Max 136 -> Sabre 2 120.
-I make 150-200 jumps a year.
-I load my canopy at 1.5.
-I have landed using 90 degrees front-riser turns for the last 400 jumps or so.
-I have trusted my rears for levelling out for the last 60 jumps or so (finishing on toggles).
-I have 5 canopy courses (2 local ones, and flight-1 101, 102 and 201). I still have to complete all the jumps of the 102 and 201, there were weather holds when I did them, but we went through the whole theory.
-I don't aim to become a world-class swooping competitor, just to be a weekend warrior getting decent and fun swoops whenever they are safe to do.
-I want to improve my swoops in a fun, safe way and at a slow but steady pace. I have no need to bite more than what I can chew or look like the coolest guy on the DZ.
-I want to sketch my immediate progression for the next 200-300 jumps.

Being said that, I have 1 question:

-Comparing Crossfire 2 and Sabre 2: Which canopy has the longest recovery arc of these two? The answer will dictate the options below. I'd prefer to have a long recovery arc to avoid getting used to lower turns and get used to the longer recovery arc of higher performance canopies.

And I have a few options to keep building up my skill-set. They are basically a combination of canopy choice (Sabre 2 or Crossfire 2), size (120-107), degrees for landing (90-270) and relative order of these things (one change after the other or multiple changes at once -such as Sabre 2 120 -> Crossfire 2 109-, and which changes).

My current ideas:

If Crossfire 2 has a longer recovery arc:
-Stay on my Sabre 2 120 for a short time, get to know it and keep on 90s, and then switch to a Crossfire 2 119. Later on get comfortable with 270s and downsize to a Crossfire 2 109 afterwards.
-OR-
-Stay on my Sabre 2 120 for a short time, get to know it and keep on 90s, and then switch to a Crossfire 2 119. Later on downsize to a Crossfire 2 109 and afterwards get comfortable with 270s.

If Sabre 2 has a longer recovery arc:
-Stay on my Sabre 2 120 for a long time, get to know it and keep on 90s and then on 270s. Later on downsize to a Sabre 2 107.
-OR-
-Stay on my Sabre 2 120 for a medium time, get to know it and keep on 90s. Later on downsize to a Sabre 2 107, get to know it and keep on 90s and then on 270s.

Let's classify short time as 50-100 jumps, medium time as 100-150 jumps, and long time as 150-200 jumps.

In the longer term I'd like to switch to a relatively tame cross-braced canopy (JFX). At this moment more aggressive canopies are too far away in the future to even consider them (Velocity, JVX). I might consider a Katana as well, but I am not sure I want to mess with a canopy so aggressive without the added efficiency of cross-braces.

Any input is much appreciated. I am asking here because this forum has more reach than the few experienced swoopers I can talk to in my DZ, but I'll also ask for their thoughts, with an special emphasis on one flight-1 instructor in a close DZ.

[Pobrause 6]

Both, xfire ans SA2 have very comparable recovery arcs. I think if you jump them both you'll find the recovery of the SA2 to be just a tiny bit longer but not to an extend where it really matters considering your goals.
Range on rears is not very different, pressure on fronts nearly equal, maybe a bit higher on the xfire.
The Crossi is more aggressive on toggles though and might react quicker to harness input.

Sabre 2s, 120 at 1.5 even more so, are awesome swooping machines, when you already have one keep it until the 270s bore you, then buy a Katana

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MISV7GXi7qc

-------------------------------------------------------

To absent friends

[timrf79 0]

If I am not mistaken I learned in my 201/202 that at a loading of less than 1.6 you should not exceed front 90's on final.
As the Sabre 2 generates enough speed to lift you far up (it will have enough speed to lift you up from a 90).

Assuming my recollection is right, you would want to go down further on the Sabre 2 line, before doing 270's or more on final.

And maybe doe the 201 and 202 with jumps?

[Crispy. 0]

timrf79

If I am not mistaken I learned in my 201/202 that at a loading of less than 1.6 you should not exceed front 90's on final.
As the Sabre 2 generates enough speed to lift you far up (it will have enough speed to lift you up from a 90).

Assuming my recollection is right, you would want to go down further on the Sabre 2 line, before doing 270's or more on final.

And maybe doe the 201 and 202 with jumps?

Not saying that I know anything about this subject, but this guy might disagree with you (and your 201/202 instrustors):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25aExv7YDYg

Regardless, it looks fun!!

[Pobrause 6]

that's a rather strange generalization if true. I thought they teach more specific things in those courses.
Sounds like a rule for beginner swoopers to keep them away from stuff they can't handle until they got the basics down.
Unwanted popups are more an issue of wrong inputs rather then wingload. Done correctly lower wingloads can swoop just fine, done incorrectly higher wls will pop up just as well.

Search for sabre 2 swoops on youtube, on some of the videos the WL is stated. Only a couple come even close to 1.6, most are below.

-------------------------------------------------------

To absent friends

[timrf79 0]

Pobrause

that's a rather strange generalization if true. I thought they teach more specific things in those courses.
Sounds like a rule for beginner swoopers to keep them away from stuff they can't handle until they got the basics down.
Unwanted popups are more an issue of wrong inputs rather then wingload. Done correctly lower wingloads can swoop just fine, done incorrectly higher wls will pop up just as well.

Search for sabre 2 swoops on youtube, on some of the videos the WL is stated. Only a couple come even close to 1.6, most are below.

Yes, you are correct that this is a recommendation for beginning swoopers, I should have put this in better context.

[hodges 4]

Some canopies with positive recovery arcs and low loadings will climb a little after they recover though, right?

I doubt that'd be the main cause for popups though. It's usually because you have to turn them super low and you're almost stabbing out to get a swoop out of them.

[danielcroft 2]

Pobrause

Unwanted popups are more an issue of wrong inputs rather then wingload.

If you're talking about slowly letting your risers up once you've completed your turn, I strongly object to this technique. I'm only aware of that method of dealing with a SA2/XF2's tendency to pop up so, maybe there's something I'm missing (wouldn't be the first time!)?

To the OP: wait for a few months, Crossfire X and Katana 2 are meant to come out "soon".

If you're wanting to get one of these two wings - and I'd agree that their respective recovery arcs are similar, all things being equal - given that you're talking about moving to something more aggressive after that, I'd go XF2. Given your experience and currently loading (and, that that's actually correct ) you should definitely consider the Katana. I personally preferred the XF2 at that stage in my canopy progression but, really should have gone to a KA given that I'd been doing double fronts and then 90s for hundreds of jumps prior. Actually, what I ended up doing was Jumping a SA2 120 for a while and then trying KA120 (felt like more than one step), XF2119 (liked it) and demoing a Skylark Odyssey 115 (got my Pro rating on it). I ended up on the Odyssey (again, looking back, KA was probably a better choice) after 20 ish jumps on the KA, XF2 and, 50 or so on the Odyssey.

You're not me, obviously so, YMMV. You get a grown-ass-people canopy, take grown-ass responsibility.

[Pobrause 6]

danielcroft

***Unwanted popups are more an issue of wrong inputs rather then wingload.

If you're talking about slowly letting your risers up once you've completed your turn, I strongly object to this technique. I'm only aware of that method of dealing with a SA2/XF2's tendency to pop up so, maybe there's something I'm missing (wouldn't be the first time!)?



No, I wasn't. With wrong technique I meant more a combination of steering lines too short, arms not all the way up during recovery ( tail input), too early and/or too much rear riser input, stabbing out because not familiar with speed/ already to low.
My titatium femur can testify, why slowly letting up the fronts might be a stupid idea, especially when transitioning from a SA2 to a KA

One sollution could be a carved turn, another would be setting up a bit too low and gently pulling yourself out of the dive with a bit of toggle input during the recovery and just when you recover fully arms all the way up again. Only marginally better than hanging on your fronts, when I think it through though...
So those are quite advanced and not suitable for beginners.
Most popups could probably be avoided by adressing the mistakes I mentioned above.

Just watched some old videos of mine, it sure wasn't easy to swoop that 150 SA2 at 1.3

-------------------------------------------------------

To absent friends

[Deimian 43]

danielcroft

I'd go XF2. Given your experience and currently loading (and, that that's actually correct ) you should definitely consider the Katana.

Thanks for the input! But that is just a partial answer . You'd go XF2, but keeping the same size (SA2-120 -> XF2-119), or downsizing at the same time (SA2-120 -> XF2-109)? I guess you meant keeping the same size, but I don't like to assume too much, assuming stuff is a big source of problems . And that change, whatever you meant, before or after starting with 270s?

Talking about Katanas, would you give the same advice for KA than for XF2? Is a WL1.5 appropriate for a canopy like KA? I always see them kind of highly loaded.

[danielcroft 2]

Pobrause

No, I wasn't.

I've had the "pop" up problem mid canopy course with Curt while I'm actually doing it right *and* on video (XF2-109 ~1.6:1) - that is doing a 90º and actually getting some power. The only way I found I could get that wing to actually recover nicely from a height that didn't make me want to poo was to slowly let the fronts out after the turn was complete. I am always happy to admit my lack of skill (in just about anything ) but, this was consistent. Yes, I could have dropped the turn height but, at my loading, on that wing (SA2 was the same) generating power resulted in a "pop" up. Mind you, if I wasn't actually trying super hard, it was really nice to swoop.

Deimian

Thanks for the input! But that is just a partial answer .

I'm hesitant to give specific advice since, I have never seen you fly your wing and, I don't know how you approach your swooping, etc. The obvious (and somewhat "conservative") answer would be SA2-120 -> XF2-119 -> KA-107. You make the transition from a less elliptical wing to a more elliptical going to something less aggressive first. You could also go SA2-120 -> SA2-107 -> KA-107. You'll likely find more people having an issue with you going SA2-120 -> KA-107 as that's quite a big step in performance. I wouldn't comfortable with any of my friends doing that unless they were pretty much just hop-and-poping all the time. Some people might be ok with SA2-120 -> XF2-109 since the recovery arc isn't hugely different but you'd have to have demonstrated that you could bail and save your ass on your SA2 pretty convincingly. It's generally held that changing to a more fully elliptical wing and downsizing is a bad idea though so, you start getting into the lower percentage success outcomes.

The path for a KA isn't the same as a XF2, all things being equal, the KA is a higher performance wing.

I encourage you to discuss with people who've seen you fly your wing and know you. You're in the danger zone (#TopGunReference) of experience and that's crossing over with your progression. Asking people on the intertubez isn't a good sign. Please understand that the "how you approach it" and "your attitude" are both totally valid considerations when it comes to one of the higher risk versions of our sport.

Having said all that, you're an adult so, you can do whatever you want.

[Deimian 43]

Thanks for the input. I totally understand your hesitation to give specific advice about turns and canopy choices. I want to keep doing this for many years, so it is very likely that I'll choose a pretty conservative approach, but still increasing the speed of my landings.

Regarding this comment: "Asking people on the intertubez isn't a good sign". I understand that as well, and normally I would agree with you. In this case I wasn't fishing for opinions to validate my point and contradict conservative advice from somebody in real life, which is normally the case. I simply wanted to have more reach and get more opinions, either conservative or aggressive. I tend to dismiss the aggressive opinions anyway, so if somebody would go like "na man, get a katana 107 and then a velo, you'll be ok" or "when you go cross-braced take always one size smaller, they fly better so you don't need the extra surface of non cross-braced canopies", I'd ignore that right away.

[danielcroft 2]

I mentioned in another thread that I think SA2-120 -> KA-135 at your loading is a more manageable step. If you're inclined to take the "safe" route (none of us would be swooping, or jumping in that case) and you were leaning towards the KA, you could totally do that. Based on my experience doing that step at a similar loading to you. I think I had a few more jumps than you when I did but, I don't remember now.

[Deimian 43]

Thanks. I am not particularly keen on moving to KA right now. They are more aggressive than what I am looking for. Moreover, it won't fit in my container.

What I might do is SA2-120->SA2-107->KA-120, if I ever consider the KA. To be honest I am thinking more in transitioning to XF2 and later on, maybe in 500 jumps or so, move to a JFX. I am under the impression that the JFX, even though it is cross-braced, is less aggressive than the KA. I might be wrong though.

What I meant about the "safe" route, was "safeish" . As safe as possible without giving up on the fun that jumping and swooping is.