KA2 and Crossfire3

[danielcroft 2]

The first time I flew a KA it was a KA-135 and I'd been flying a SA2-120 - that felt like a reasonable step to me. A bit later, I tried a friend's KA-120 while I was still on the SA2-120. It was a fucking beast compared. I could harness turn bigger, longer turns on the KA-120 than I could ever riser/harness on the SA2.

I will say, that "ground hungry" isn't a term that I use with the KA (not, at least at "normal" loadings). It's an active pilot's wing. You must fly it at all times. Unlike any of the other wings we've been talking about, if you look at the scenery, you won't get back from a long spot, if you fly it back, it's fine. Same goes with openings and HP turns.

Point is, like the Stiletto, the Katana is often the first *actual* high performance wing people start flying so, they're often surprised by openings and landings, if you're not aware enough to be actively flying the wing during those times, you stand a good chance of getting bitten.

[becka 0]

That being said, I would think that PD would want maintain this canopy for people who want to and are prepared to actively fly their canopy.

[danielcroft 2]

Yeah, I know a lot of people who love their Katanas, not sure what PD's plans are for the wing once the "new thing" comes out (whatever it's called). My guess is that, if NZA comes out with the Crossfire 3 and X and, they're both Schumann-y planforms, people will become less and less interested in "old" style wings. This, in spite of the undeniable performance of the "old" wings. I'm pretty confident that PD's "Whatever it's called" (katana 2) will be Schumann-y and so, plenty of people will want it.

Subsequent problem will be getting people to step from an "old" style wing (SA2/SF2/SF3) to a new style wing (XF3/X/KA2) and back to a "beginner" (<-- that's a joke) crossbraced wing (VC/JVX/etc.) while they have their eyes on the Valkyrie/Leia/Helix prize.

The new hotness is always tempting but, there'll be plenty of people on "old" wings outswooping peeps on new style wings.

[danielcroft 2]

Looks like Fluid Wings is wanting to get in on the "high performance, Schumann-y Planform, non-crossbraced wing" action, as well:

https://vimeo.com/180641619

[Rstanley0312 0]

danielcroft

Looks like Fluid Wings is wanting to get in on the "high performance, Schumann-y Planform, non-crossbraced wing" action, as well:

https://vimeo.com/180641619

Just saw that the other day. Kolla put it out there. I like the way Fluid operates.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[nad 0]

I'm curious to know the flight characteristics in comparison to the KA. It seems like a promising wing when they mention they were focusing on the openings, which I dread on the KA. Don't get me wrong, I love flying the Katana only once it opens and flies.

[Alexg3265 0]

I've flown multiple sizes of katanas and did some of the testing on the tesla. Heres my opinion...

The fronts on the tesla are heavier than the katana. (big surprise there)
The rears are about the same and similar travel, but more responsive to roll. The recovery arc is in between a katana and a crossfire 2. More of a neutral recovery arc, but it has to be wound up pretty good to get it recover flat on its own. Its more harness sensitive like a crossfire2. Flying side by side in full flight, it has a similar glide path to a katana, but slightly higher forward speed at similar sizes and loadings. In windy and bumpy conditions, its super solid. No breathing, bucking, nothing.

As of right now, the sizes are being filled in up and down the range and once testing is done itll be released and demos will be available!

I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

[danielcroft 2]

Thanks for adding your comments, Alex.

Thoughts on openings?

I'm super keen to demo all these new, HP, Schumann-y, non-crossbraced 9 cells.

@nad The openings on the KAs I've flown haven't been a big deal, scary for sure but, as you get more experience, they'll stress you less.

[nad 0]

Thank Alex! Appreciate you shedding some light on the flight characteristics. I'm curious on the openings as well.

@Daniel. Yeah, I've learn just to fly with the wing and have gotten comfortable with it. It's the occasional whips that get me especially when I fly camera.

[Alexg3265 0]

The openings is the last detail that we were working on... we wanted them beautiful, not just acceptable... Which in my opinion, they are now. Every jump ive done on the newest and final version of the 120, they were all on heading and well staged. Kind of opens like a helix. I know its a teaser video, but every opening we've had so far looks like the video. I'll let you all know when demos are available and you can tell us!

I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

[danielcroft 2]

I already sent Lucas an email about getting on the demo list when that's a thing.

[EvilGenius 0]

Apparently Fluid Wings will be at Skydive Delmarva in Delaware this weekend and...

"might even have some not yet released "items" with us for those interested in getting a sneak peak"

....perhaps somebody can report back here?! ;-)

[RXB17 0]

https://vimeo.com/189958872 Looks like it's almost ready

[EvilGenius 0]

The Crossfire 3 has its own page now http://www.nzaerosports.com/canopies/icarus-crossfire3/

[Alexg3265 0]

RXB17

https://vimeo.com/189958872 Looks like it's almost ready

It is ready... 107 and 120 sizes will be available for order on november 15th. The 135 and 150's will be available by the end of the month, and the 97 will follow shortly thereafter... Demos will also be available, but will be in high demand and short supply until we build up the fleet...

I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

[danielcroft 2]

Waiting for an email on the demo I requested.

[Alexg3265 0]

We will be taking demo requests on the 15th. Not any sooner....

I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

[timrf79 0]

How does the Crossfire 3 compare to a Sabre2?
On the site it states "is the all-round maestro", but also that it is fully elliptical.
Or in other words is going from a 170 Sabre 2 to a 150 Crossfire 3 a "no-no" or "ok"?

[boardumb 0]

Alexg3265

We will be taking demo requests on the 15th. Not any sooner....

Are demo and sales for the Tesla going live right at midnight EST?

[Di0 1]

timrf79

On the site it states "is the all-round maestro", but also that it is fully elliptical.

I don't think the two statements to be mutually exclusive. I would consider the xfire2 to be a great all-rounder, while also being fully elliptical. It has great openings, even compared to the saf2, it has a flat trim which lets you come back from bad spots if doing video, a great amount of flare from half brakes when landing in a tight spot. At the same time it's fully elliptical so it reacts fairly well to harness, it can be swooped quite decently etc.
To make a comparison, while I think the katana to be a better canopy to learn how to swoop properly, and certainly has more performances to squeeze out of it, making all the more worth to learn proper techniques like rear risers induced recovery etc. (something that is not really that rewarding on a flatter canopy like a xfire), and is a good stepping stone going into a crossbraced canopy because has similar trimming characteristic to a, let's say, velo... I don't consider the katana as good as all-rounder. I mean, of course you can do everything with it, but it requires a lot more "maintenance" and attention, and it's not as forgiving when it comes to flattening, landing it etc. I certainly have a higher "workload" when flying the katana then I had flying the crossfire2.

So depending on what type of jump you do, your experience etc. I would say that fully elliptical doesn't necessarily mean you can't use the canopy as an all-rounder. From what I've heard the crossfire3 will be intended along this line, while the "Extreme fire" or whatever the name will be, is more geared toward a "dedicated" canopy pilot.

Just my 2c, since I have a couple hundred jumps on xfire 2 and on a katana so that's my idea... but I know nothing about these new models.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[Deimian 43]

On the crossfire 3 website it also states:

Quote

Unparalleled openings, a longer recovery arc and incredible swoop distance combine in a 9-cell fully elliptical wing that's 100% devoted to the art of having fun.

I wonder what are they comparing with. Longer than crossfire 2, or longer than a more conservative class of wing (safire 3)? Reading just the crossfire 3 website it seems like it is more aggressive than the crossfire 2. Then I read the crossfire 2 again and I've seen basically the same description:

Quote

[...] Its swoop capability almost rivals cross-braced canopies such as the EXTreme FX, while maintaining [...] a long recovery arc, incredible swoop distance and unparalleled openings.

[...] It has a light front riser pressure and an even longer recovery arc.

The Crossfire 2 is a highly elliptical, [...]

I wish marketing didn't exist, sometimes it just muds the water if you try to find useful information.

An interesting bit (maybe) is that they recommend to load it from 1.5 to 2.0 psf for "maximum performance". That is less than the crossfire 2 (recommended WL from 1.4 to 2.1). They also state that "intermediate pilots" can load it between 1.0 and 1.4, which was not recommended for the crossfire 2. Could that mean that the crossfire 3 is actually more docile than the crossfire 2? I guess we'll have to wait for the first reviews......

[SethInMI 145]

In both cases, I read it as they are comparing to the previous generation. The xfire 2 has a longer recovery arc that the xfire1. The xfire3 has a longer recovery arc than the xfire2.


Seth

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[timrf79 0]

Deimian

On the crossfire 3 website it also states:
An interesting bit (maybe) is that they recommend to load it from 1.5 to 2.0 psf for "maximum performance". That is less than the crossfire 2 (recommended WL from 1.4 to 2.1). They also state that "intermediate pilots" can load it between 1.0 and 1.4, which was not recommended for the crossfire 2. Could that mean that the crossfire 3 is actually more docile than the crossfire 2? I guess we'll have to wait for the first reviews......

Yes, thank you for pointing this out. This is an aspect that confused me as well.
I am not sure if I would be ready for an elliptical canopy, however I am loading my (current) Sabre 1 at 1.56...

[colin2000 0]

SethInMI

The xfire 2 has a longer recovery arc that the xfire1.


Seth

I don't ever post hear, but this is one I felt I need to adddress because most people who speak of the xf1, usually have never flown one.

As someone who has owned and put many jumps on both the original xf1(01') and the xf2(08'), that statement is completely incorrect. The xf2 is nothing like a xf1. Somehow, Icarus designed a much inferior version for their second attempt at this line of canopy. The openings got much worse, the wing dove much less, and the fun factor completely changed. The original xf1 filled that swooping transition gap that is currently missing from their lineup. It had, for its time and even now, a long recovery arch, some of the best openings you could find in ANY type of canopy, and was the perfect transition canopy into high performance xbraced wings. I for one was so disappointed in my xf2 experiences it almost drove me away from Icarus canopies all together. That's saying a lot considering in the 16 years I've been in the sport, I've only ever owned Icarus canopies. Even though I have jumped them many times, I've never owned a PD wing. Thankfully, my transition from the xf2 to my JVX and current Leia canopies have reinvigorated my love for these companies and this brand. They are returning to the Icarus of old, and I for one believe it couldn't have come soon enough. I personally don't expect the xf3 to be that much better than the xf2, maybe a little better openings and a slight increase in diving performance and flare efficiency, but nothing too dramatically different from what they are offering now, basically a refined xf2. Hopefully they will get back to the original formula with the xf Extreme that made them popular in the first place: long snively openings that open on heading and never, EVER consider malfunctioning; long recovery archs that never pull you out of a dive before you want them too; and a long, smooth, and consistent flare that has the power to take you from pullout to a dead stop even when you mess up the efficiency of your flare.

Those that are looking for a swooping canopy that will help transition you into the xbraced realm, my opinion would be to wait for the latter option. Those who are coming from a Safire type wing looking to get under an all around, hassle free fully elliptical wing, the xf3 should probably be your cup of tea. It will be up to you to decide if that extra refinement is worth the markup from their current offerings. But if they get the xf Extreme right and bring back the best of the xf1, considering the current level of development they have been putting into these new designs, it's gonna be a good day for canopy pilots looking for that transitional step into the high performance world, and well worth the markup. As always YMMV, but keep in mind, I have a vast knowledge of their canopy lines that runs from the original Safire1 to their current top of the line hybrid xbrace. These are well informed/experienced opinions of a life long Icarus/Daedalus canopy pilot. Hopefully this helped inform any future purchase decisions any of you are considering. Good luck and keep it safe..

[SethInMI 145]

colin2000

I don't ever post hear, but this is one I felt I need to adddress because most people who speak of the xf1, usually have never flown one.

As someone who has owned and put many jumps on both the original xf1(01') and the xf2(08'), that statement is completely incorrect.

Nice to hear from a lurker! I was just paraphrasing the website, so the comparison on recovery arc is nzaero's, not mine.

I am interested in the xfire3, so if you get a chance to jump one come back here and give a review.

Seth

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".