1 1
nad

KA2 and Crossfire3

Recommended Posts

Anybody have any news on when these will be released? After seeing the spoilers for Crossfire3 in 11/14, I haven't seen anything since. And there is nothing beyond the PD R&D: What lies ahead over a year ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Don't know about either, but unless it is a complete redesign I would think that the Crossfire 3 will continue to be a poor choice for learning high performance landings!
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DougH

unless it is a complete redesign I would think that the Crossfire 3 will continue to be a poor choice for learning high performance landings!



It's apparently a complete redesign. And from what I hear, it's likely to be two canopies... one aimed at the Stiletto-ish end and one at the Katana-ish end of the market.

I guess the Katana is also a poor choice for learning high-performance landings on though, right?
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DougH

Don't know about either, but unless it is a complete redesign I would think that the Crossfire 3 will continue to be a poor choice for learning high performance landings!



Bc of the recovery arc?
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Joellercoaster

***unless it is a complete redesign I would think that the Crossfire 3 will continue to be a poor choice for learning high performance landings!



It's apparently a complete redesign. And from what I hear, it's likely to be two canopies... one aimed at the Stiletto-ish end and one at the Katana-ish end of the market.

I guess the Katana is also a poor choice for learning high-performance landings on though, right?

I did have someone PM some material on CF3

https://www.instagram.com/p/BFzQZ1IPmn6/?taken-by=nzaerosports
-> 7 weeks ago, quote "still don't have a timeline on that yet, but we hope in the next few months if all goes well! Fingers crossed ;) Shan"

https://www.facebook.com/nzaerosports/photos/a.142006912495692.24087.139399876089729/1345443112152060/?type=3&theater
-> two weeks ago, quote "Not just yet, but the project is in full swing now that the Safire 3 is released.... Shan"

I do agree the KA is a poor first choice to learn from, but I did come from a SA2 wing before transitioning to the KA.

There is a thread with someone mentioning that there will be two CF versions here:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4714800;search_string=crossfire3;#4714800

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rstanley0312


Bc of the recovery arc?



Yes that is my opinion of them. Too short of a recovery arc which leads to a lower turn, and a more narrow window for length of dive and rotation rate.

I see way more people, especially jumpers newer to swooping, digging out of the corner on these short recovery arc ellipticals.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DougH

***
Bc of the recovery arc?



Yes that is my opinion of them. Too short of a recovery arc which leads to a lower turn, and a more narrow window for length of dive and rotation rate.

I see way more people, especially jumpers newer to swooping, digging out of the corner on these short recovery arc ellipticals.

I figured that is why. I jump a CF2 but also a xbraced. I agree that there is a problem in terms of the RA. You do have to turn low bc it pulls you out of the turn unless it is a big turn in which case it still does but you can maintain a dive better with a bigger turn (naturally). Some xbraced canopies also do this when compared to their counterparts. I think the JVX wants to pull itself out faster than others. Not like the XF2 but it is a lower turn compared to a velo. The XF1 stayed in a dive much better. I hope they improve on this but overall I love the XF2 but it is not a swooping canopy. It can be swooped but it's design is not built for it really.

-Rob
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So far, rumor mill says:

"Katana 2" - successor to the KA - let's hope it's not quite as high performance as the KA (depending on loading, blah, blah)
"Crossfire 3" - it's another crossfire so, same concept - great all-rounder
"Crossfire X" - meant to be a competitor to the "KA2" - proper step for people looking to get into HP landings

All 3 are meant to be on the "Schumann Planform" continuum (tapered leading edge, straight trailing)

As far as recovery arc goes, I like to make a distinction between recovery arc and recovery cycle. The "recovery cycle" being the behavior of the wing at the bottom of the arc. The KA (VE/VC/VK/Leia/etc.) all recover negatively, i.e. return to full flight without going up. The Crossfire 2 (SA2, Safire, etc.) recover positively, meaning that they'll tend to "go up". This helps save your ass if you haven't learnt how (and, more importantly) when to bail.

Not saying this is new info to everyone here but, I find it helpful when explaining to people who are looking to dip their toes into swooping (see what I did there?) and are wondering about different wings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So PD is going to make a KA2 that is "lower performance" than the Ka? Seems odd to me, I agree with poster above who said they should call it something else. I do think the Ka could use a stepping stone from the Sabre2 class in many cases since Katanas fall out of the sky similar to how a velo does. A Katana2 sounds like it would be a higher performance version of a Katana... not lower.
BASE 1384

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not sure "lower performance" has the connotation that I'm looking for but, I guess that's what I hope. I hope that, rather than having a SA2 at one of the spectrum, the VE/VC at the other and, the KA only one tiny step back from the VE/VC that we end up with a wing that will allow people to step more appropriately towards the ultra high performance wings that are available to the public.

The "problem" with the KA is that, there's no wing (in PD's range and, I'd argue NZA's either) that serves as that stepping stone. You could argue for a larger, more lightly loaded KA but, I think that a SA2 loaded reasonably for people to be progressing (1.4/1.5 for argument's sake) puts them up there in terms of KA recovery and performance. You're combining a change of sight picture (a significant change, IMO) with a negative recovery cycle which makes for two, critical changes to wing performance that will both bite people pretty hard. When I say "SA2 loaded reasonably for progression", I mean, I'd question the efficacy of transitioning to a more tapered, higher performance wing like the KA without having first flown a more docile wing at higher loadings. Sure, it's doable for some and, with the right training, may be fine but, I'm trying to explain a good progression here.

I'd like to see the KA2 with a slightly shorter recovery arc and a neutral recovery cycle but, that's dependent on wing design, it's not like you check a couple of boxes and get exactly what you want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi,

Recovery cycle is a misnomer and you should not use in trying to explain performance of wings. It is a misleading generalisation that is more harmful than good.

The concept you are trying to explain is the recovery arc, this differs by wing, size, loading, mechanic, roll speed, body position and amount of energy generated. The important thing for people to understand is how this combination of factors will lead to length and (for lack of a better term) strength of the recovery arc.

This is why the combination of some wings, loading and mechanics are not the greatest for swooping.
While I can alter the recovery arc of (via turn mechanic, etc) this may not be a good choice.
This is best discussed with a coach around their particular canopy, turn mechanic, skill set, goals, etc.

What you are hitting on in terms of progression is that crossover (danger!) area that covers getting some swoop performance from a less aggressive wing to asking a lot from a 'non swoopy' wing versus downsize/platform change to a more appropriate, swoop friendly wing (that may be above experience level / skill set). Now that is a very good discussion around a problem that has not been addressed and is possibly the gap in canopies
"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree that I like the Katana exactly the way it is. A better stepping stone ideally would be people putting more jumps (and canopy training) in before going to a Katana and treating it with the respect it deserves.

I don't mind an intermediate canopy existing since that is not likely to happen. However, I would like to buy another Katana in a year or so, not a Katana-lite designed for people who don't come close to following long standing recommendations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jiggs

The concept you are trying to explain is the recovery arc, this differs by wing, size, loading, mechanic, roll speed, body position and amount of energy generated. The important thing for people to understand is how this combination of factors will lead to length and (for lack of a better term) strength of the recovery arc.


The part of the recovery arc that I'm trying to emphasize in the context of learning to swoop and progressing through lower to higher performance wings is the tendency for wings such as a Sabre 2 or Crossfire 2 to recover with a high point at the end of the arc. Progressing from a wing that will recover in this manner with even a very low efficiency turn to a wing that won't ever do that without pilot input is a really important part of what it means to talk about recovery and, particularly progression.

I guess what I'm looking to describe is part of the recovery that differs so much between "swooping" and "non-swooping" wings. We can talk about a longer recovery arc but the tendency of a wing to recover in a way that helps a pilot in trouble or not is something I don't have a name for.

Thanks for the comments, I'll word what I'm getting at differently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
danielcroft

So far, rumor mill says:

"Katana 2" - successor to the KA - let's hope it's not quite as high performance as the KA (depending on loading, blah, blah)
"Crossfire 3" - it's another crossfire so, same concept - great all-rounder
"Crossfire X" - meant to be a competitor to the "KA2" - proper step for people looking to get into HP landings

All 3 are meant to be on the "Schumann Planform" continuum (tapered leading edge, straight trailing)

As far as recovery arc goes, I like to make a distinction between recovery arc and recovery cycle. The "recovery cycle" being the behavior of the wing at the bottom of the arc. The KA (VE/VC/VK/Leia/etc.) all recover negatively, i.e. return to full flight without going up. The Crossfire 2 (SA2, Safire, etc.) recover positively, meaning that they'll tend to "go up". This helps save your ass if you haven't learnt how (and, more importantly) when to bail.

Not saying this is new info to everyone here but, I find it helpful when explaining to people who are looking to dip their toes into swooping (see what I did there?) and are wondering about different wings.



Is that what that is called?

Nevermind, just read more discussion on it.
-Rob
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jiggs

Hi,

Recovery cycle is a misnomer and you should not use in trying to explain performance of wings. It is a misleading generalisation that is more harmful than good.

The concept you are trying to explain is the recovery arc, this differs by wing, size, loading, mechanic, roll speed, body position and amount of energy generated. The important thing for people to understand is how this combination of factors will lead to length and (for lack of a better term) strength of the recovery arc.

This is why the combination of some wings, loading and mechanics are not the greatest for swooping.
While I can alter the recovery arc of (via turn mechanic, etc) this may not be a good choice.
This is best discussed with a coach around their particular canopy, turn mechanic, skill set, goals, etc.

What you are hitting on in terms of progression is that crossover (danger!) area that covers getting some swoop performance from a less aggressive wing to asking a lot from a 'non swoopy' wing versus downsize/platform change to a more appropriate, swoop friendly wing (that may be above experience level / skill set). Now that is a very good discussion around a problem that has not been addressed and is possibly the gap in canopies



With that gap in mind... if a person is under a CF2 for instance, what is the best available next step. Many jump to a xbraced. It is clear they are very different. (assume staying with the same loading/size) when transitioning. I have heard many very experienced swoopers say it is a waste of time to go to a KA or Neos. Basically, the right move being a xbraced with a lot of coaching. Thoughts with what is currently offered? This is a good discussion I think.

-Rob
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Halfpastniner

So PD is going to make a KA2 that is "lower performance" than the Ka? Seems odd to me, I agree with poster above who said they should call it something else. I do think the Ka could use a stepping stone from the Sabre2 class in many cases since Katanas fall out of the sky similar to how a velo does. A Katana2 sounds like it would be a higher performance version of a Katana... not lower.



Just a guess...but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't a KA2...more so a Sabre 3. The sabre class market is much larger than the Katana. I would think it would be smart to have a canopy that fits in that market with the SA2, but has some of the advantages of a better wing shape/design. It wouldn't need to be all around higher performance. Maybe more bottom end...less drag... better fwd speed. There would be tons of folks interested in that who may not want the extra baggage that comes along with long recovery and super high performance wings.

I'll be interested to see what it is. I don't think we will have to wait too long.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think it's a case of progressing wing loading sensibly and then it's just a case of deciding which wing makes sense at that loading.

If you're at 1.8 (maybe coming from a SA2 at 1.8), you might go for a KA and love it.

If you were a bit higher (say around 2.0), you might choose a VE and love that.

If you are at 1.8 and you "skip" the KA and got a VE, you'd probably hate it. I flew a VE103 at about 1.9 for a bit and the thing just wanted to create lift. I had to roll out lower than a KA at the same loading. I ended up damaging a tendon in my arm due to the front riser pressure. ("Swoopers elbow" ;))

So, to answer your question directly, of course there's a place for the KA in the progression if you're advancing your wing loading sensibly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It depends............;)

It's a bit about the person and what they are currently doing, as well where they want to get to and how many jumps they are going to do. Then we make a plan from there. Not to mention the biggest thing is how well they are doing on their current wing! For many people that ask 'what canopy I should I get next?', the answer is: 'a consistent turn mechanic'.

From XF2 I would get many people to go for a katana, a few them directly to something more swoopy - (e.g. JFX) - it just depends on the individual and WL. If they are already around 2 and doing larger HP turns well, that opens it up more. If they have a WL of 1.4 the answer is not going to be 'get a small velocity'!

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
timrf79

Is there a rumor about KA2 release dates?
Also at what WL is a SA2 to KA transition recommended?



I just transferred from an SA2 150 to a KA 150 at 1250 jumps and a 1.6 WL and I quickly realized the KA is no joke (not that I thought it would be). From the moment I pitch it takes quite a bit more concentration to keep it from spinning up where as my SA2 was more forgiving. Then there's the rears which have much lower pressure.

And now I know what ground hungry means. ;). Fun as hell but unless you're serious about canopy piloting I'd stay on the SA2 for a shit ton more jumps than you think...especially with your stated jump numbers. :P.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

1 1