Problems with accuracy and landing a 220

[DemolitionDarby 0]

Hey guys,

I’m currently working on my A license and fresh out of AFF with 14 total jumps. The issue I’m having is accuracy and standup landings on a 220 main. When I was in AFF I could put a 260 down like a butterfly with sore feet. But, now that I’ve down sized to a 220 every landing I’ve had has been fast, always over shot (no matter where I start my final), and ends with me PLFing or looking like a ballplayer sliding into home plate.

So, I would like to ask the collective consciousness of Dropzone.com to see what advice you might have to a complete n00b to improve accuracy and safety under canopy.

Thank you!

[timrf79 0]

Well,
it is simple. You should only downsize when you have your canopy fully dialed in.
Then you downsize and start the learning over again.

So, do practice flares up high to get feel for it.
Jump multiple times in one day and adjust your pattern points.
Have someone film your landing and critique it.

[Blis 1]

Seeing that you have been flying huge student canopy my bet is on un-finished flare....

But as said before, get canopy coaching and have someone film and debrief your landings, it's the quickest way to success...

[sammielu 3]

As a student, you should talk to your instructors about this and any question, they know you, your experience, equipment and dz specifics.

If you did well on a 260 and not so well 40 square feet smaller (and faster), there's no reason to be on that 220. Go back to that 260 and really dial it in including different wind conditions and downwind and crosswind landings. Then maybe try a 25p if available, either way: talk to instructors and get specific feedback for you, not general Internet feedback.

[danielcroft 2]

sammielu

As a student, you should talk to your instructors about this and any question, they know you, your experience, equipment and dz specifics.

This is a great place to start. Even when you're not a student, still a great place to start.

[STiJumper15 0]

Hm that's weird. I'm using a 230 sq ft now. I've been doing great on my AFF jumps. The second one I had I flared by myself perfect. If only my skydive was that perfect. My instructor uses a 3 stage flare for us. Level 1 is right around your shoulders. Level 2 is right around waist. Level 3 is all the way. He tells us to evaluate every stage. On that jump I waited for him to tell me to flare. I got a little scared. I started to flare at level 1. Gauged my distance then went to full flare. I had to run out of my landing tho. See if that helps. I flared 2nd time with no assistance, and he was pretty happy with it.

Soar like a bird? We need airplanes to do that.

[riggerrob 558]

I was discussing this with a couple of students last weekend.
I asked them: "How high is the flag pole?"
"How high is the wind-sock?"
"How high is the far fence?"
"Which is the best height to start your flare?"

The two most important factors are starting your flare at the correct altitude and - secondly - finishing your flare.

Local students were fortunate to always have instructors (or CSPA Coach 2) watching their landings and giving advice on how to improve.

Second best would be to have video of your landings and discuss that video with a local instructor that evening.
Hint: cold lemonade always improves instructors' attitudes and improves quality of coaching.

On a similar note, this evening I am enjoying a bottle of wine .... but that is a rigger habit.

[sammielu 3]

I meant: if a 220 is too fast for you right now, go back to the 260, then maybe try a 240 before the 220.

[crazydaisy315 0]

Changing canopy also takes time. I flew a 260, 240, 230 and 190 on various student and transition rigs. Now I have my own 190. And my landings got worse on my new one initially, but are finally getting better. Each canopy has its own tricks and techniques, and its taken me 10 landings (PLFs) to barely begin to understand my glide path (and how its flatter with better penetration into the wind, so I overshoot and have to correct my landing pattern on the next jump) as well as my flare. It has enough flare at the bottom to pop me up a couple of feet (which the student gear did not) and the first time that happened, I inadvertently lifted my hands, and then had to flare again really hard to prevent the nearly inevitable dive. That was my 1st standup landing under my new one, and it taught me the importance of really digging into the bottom of the flare to get every last bit of it.

I had some doubts about the size of canopy I went with, but its right at a 1:1 wing load, and everyone at my DZ has been counseling patience (and a canopy control class).

As newbies we are so damn hard on ourselves. Do you think golfers are any good after not even one round of 18 holes? You have only landed a parachute 14 times, and I'd be willing to be you had never done anything remotely like that before.

[kalleanka 0]

[inline Relative_Glide.png]

[Anachronist 2]

Whew, jumping in here a few months late :P

Thought I would share my own experience and what I think would have helped me a lot more as a student. Especially as a big boy, people jumping 150's at 1:1 are going to have a different experience.

I had a similar issue, great landings on a 240, crap landings on a 220, and good landings again on a 190. Well after AFF, I'm 250 out the door so I used a 300 for my first 30 or so jumps.

Anyway, I had two big learning moments. One was when I was taught that at full flight you have 100% flare available to you, when you use a little bit to slow down, maybe now you only have 80% left, and if you take a long slow finish stoke (even if you finish it all the way), you maybe only have 50% for the final bit when your feet touch the ground. This got me about half way to good landings. I learned to "keep more flare in the bank" until I needed it, and not be so scared of the ground speed.

The second big learning moment was with pitch. The deflection of the tail with toggles is only a small portion of the lift, the biggest part comes a little bit later during the pendulum, when the angle of attack gets much larger. So on a big canopy, the flare is delayed, because the pendulum takes longer to happen. If you give a really long slow flare, you can't pendulum very much at all (there is no inertia to carry you though); and if you stab out, you pendulum really hard, which is dangerous, because then you drop, so if your feet aren't right above the ground when you are pendulum'd fully forward, you are going to land very hard. Learning to time the pendulum as well as maximize it is how I really dialed in my landings.

When you are jumping something big, bleeding off all your flare power to slow ground speed is ok, because your vertical speed is so slow the landing is still ok. But when you get smaller, you have to use that energy in a shorter period of time to reduce your vertical speed (and forward speed).

Long story short, speed is your friend, because it means more power when you need it (think about a swooper, they maintain level flight for several seconds, and have the ability to climb during that time). But the margin for error gets smaller. So while you are learning, in very small increments, start flaring closer to the ground and more aggressively when you do, so you get more power right before your feet meet the ground.

At around 500 jumps I'm no expert, and my accuracy could definitely use some work, but my flare is pretty good. I've found that if I'm landing in no wind, or downwind, I wait even longer to flare, and burn up all my energy in a much smaller period of time, reducing ground speed and forward speed as much as possible. In a head wind I can take a nice long slow flare and ground speed isn't a problem. The only issue is, if you mess up, the consequences are greater. So it is something to be approached with caution.

[BigL 4]

Anachronist

Long story short, speed is your friend,

And here's the best ways to achieve speed:
- Downsize
- Add more rotation
- Trust your rears
- Never ever give up the gates

[Anachronist 2]

Hahaha indeed,

or for a student/inexperienced jumper, just don't bleed off all your speed when you are coming in on final, save it a little longer (in gradual, small increments until you become comfortable with it).

I think there is an error in how canopy flight is taught, everything is based on as little competence as possible and over simplification, mostly to prevent catastrophic errors for inexperienced jumpers (a very low turn), which is justified, and then putting the brakes on would be swoopers who have no business trying such maneuvers, not justified.

You can't fix stupid, and if you treat everyone as stupid, then you get poor results. A better approach IMHO would be to give new jumpers a deeper understanding and more tools to work with and if the would be swoopers decide to pound in, well there is no way to prevent that anyway.

For me the pendulum was a keystone in understanding the flare, and I only ever had one competitive swooper explain it to me after I had around 200 jumps. The improvement was immediate and substantial. I had been around loads of AFFIs and swoopers and no one ever bothered to bring it up. Maybe because it was "too advanced." It also does not seem to be common knowledge among newer jumpers (<500 jumps), but who knows, maybe I was just an idiot and missed it somehow until someone explained it to me.