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yvanpec

Is it even beneficial to start swooping under a certain types of canopies ?

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Hi all

i am very much leaning towards swooping. To me, the fun of the entire skydive starts when I my initiate my landing pattern....go figure.

I am a fairly new skydiver, with only 250 jumps, but also very current as all these jumps happened in 2015.

I fly a safire 2 139 loaded at 1.35.

So, i have started to mess with front riser turns on final to spice things up a little, but I feel that my canopy is just not really doing what I'd like it to do. the recovery arc is very short, and I don't want to make really low risers/harness turns to equate for that.

i am worried about potential bad habits that are gonna screw me u when I get a higher performance canopy.

Should I keep working on my routine with this canopy ?

thx for reading.

Yvan
Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

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You should get on a canopy course... Now.

On the course you might learn how to make the canopy do what you want it to do, and learn other things about flying it you didn't know about. When you start learning about using fronts, you'll start to learn how to make the landings faster, more efficient and more fun.

A 139 loaded at 1.35 at 250 jumps is pushing the downsizing quite quick.

Typical sayings like "learn to walk before you can run" apply here.

Quite a few people have infamously crippled themselves under Safire2s. Learn to fly it fully before you criticise it, and risk making yourself another statistic with it!!

I started to want to swoop at around 700 jumps. Wanted to learn properly though, so signed up for a Flight-1 201 course, possibly arrogantly thinking that the 100 series was too basic for me. I did the 201 course. It was a great learning experience, but it was also humbling, and I'm now working my way through the 100 series. 101 done, and looking for a 102 near me.

Never underestimate the value of good coaching, and the value of learning the proper foundations first.
Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

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I fully agree and some good points in there, however I think it didn't really answer the question.

In my opinion you can start training high performance landings on any canopy, but also even in the square canopy group there are more and less suitable models for it.
I have seen some front riser approaches on Safire2 170 loaded at 1.1 and it seems that the recovery arc is very short ( however maybe somebody with more experience could comment more as I only saw a few)
Sabre2 is in my opinion a really good one to start with (and also to stick with for longer time). I use Pilot 150 for WS and it does the job pretty well also.

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Thx guys.

I have already been through 101 and 102 early on. Loved it, learned a great deal of stuff. Yet I am still bored under canopy (again, NOT sayin I have nothing to learn, far from it.......but I dont want to splash my face to the ground, so I feel that a little counseling wouldn't hurt).

I just booked a 2 day course with Nick in Dubai next month. I'm sure I will have another outlook on the whole thing when we're done with it.

as far as downsizing:

1 to 36: students rig, 210
36 to 120: pilot 190
120 to 130: safire 169
130 to 240: safire 149
240 to current: safire 139

I have jumped my safire 149 on almost every continent, at variable elevation, in variable conditions, and feel very comfortable with it. I jump at high elevation at home so evertime i travel I get a more docile canopy above my head anyways.
Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

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Full disclosure - I'm not a swooper. But I have taken a few canopy courses and thought about doing riser turns at 1.35.

What discouraged me from doing them until one more downsize was the last, "advanced" canopy course I took my coach told me that building up enough speed in an efficient swoop on a lowly loaded canopy leads to a natural positive recovery arc (you pop up... and then have a shitty landing). This became very evident from videotaped landings of people in the course. So I'm waiting to get to a wingloading where I have a more neutral recovery arc before giving learning to work with front risers a more honest shot.

btw. if your profile info is correct skow - your pilot is loaded at nearly 1.7.

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lyosha


btw. if your profile info is correct skow - your pilot is loaded at nearly 1.7.



my profile says saf 139 loaded at 1.29 but i guess they don't account for the weight of the equipment.
Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

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yvanpec

***
btw. if your profile info is correct skow - your pilot is loaded at nearly 1.7.



my profile says saf 139 loaded at 1.29 but i guess they don't account for the weight of the equipment.

You're supposed to do that (DZ.com doesn't know how much you gear weighs). The clue is where it says "Your Weight with Gear" just before the box where you type in your weight with gear;)
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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As mentioned, get more canopy coaching on the wing you have (sounds like you already have that organized, which is good) as that will not only provide you with an opportunity to learn but also some advice about how to proceed. When you say "mess with front riser turns" it suggests that you're trying random stuff and aren't really taking a structured approach which can lead to serious problems. Regardless of what you're flying, not respecting your wing is a good way to get hurt. You might have just said it that way for laughs but, remember, when you're online, no one hears how you're saying it so, try to be specific.

To your question, based on your profile and posts, you definitely want to be on a wing like that right now. You can talk about a short recovery arc but, the real advantage to your wing is it has a positive recovery cycle. If you're low, and you drop your risers on a Safire 2 / Sabre 2 / etc. they recover positively, meaning that they will help you if you make a mistake, of course, you can't rely on that but it's a helping hand. The short recovery arc will definitely have you initiating lower but you're really only trying to learn what that looks like and, how and (more importantly) when to bail. Having a wing like a Katana (for example) which doesn't have a positive recovery cycle means that you *HAVE* to bail properly, and soon, or you'll get hurt. Elliptical wings bring with them another set of considerations; roll rate, sensitivity, etc so, they require more precision.

As you start progressing with some more canopy coaching, your coaches will guide you on when you might be ready to change planforms but, until then, you're really getting ahead of yourself. Will you learn bad habits from flying this wing? Sure but, "bad habits" are really only things people do when they're not paying attention. You don't have that luxury (nor do I) so don't look for "reasons" to change to a more advanced wing. I think the "bad habits" that people think they'll learn are turning too low but, if you change to a different wing and keep doing your same turn, that's not a habit, that's just being reckless. If you don't have someone at your local DZ helping you, you really should find someone respected at your DZ to help out rather than just "trying stuff".

When it comes to the wing (and loading) you're on right now, the fact that you've taken canopy courses already and, definitely sound like you're focussed on your wing, are mitigating factors but don't kid yourself into thinking that you're gtg because it's not an advanced wing. You're making the grown ass person decision to be in (at best) the upper limit of wing performance for your experience so, take grown ass person responsibility for that and do it right.

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Gonna +1 what Dan said. I started learning to swoop on a Sabre2 150 @ 1.4 and progressed from there. Learning on a "larger" canopy is good for the exact reasons Dan mentioned and the sight picture is much more important at this stage of the game. Listen to your coaches and ask them about your progression. The Safire2/Sabre2 will frustrate you at times because any mistake you make during the turn will seem to cause the canopy to "auto-recover", but it's a wing/progression that shouldn't be tossed aside for convenience's sake.

Don't skimp on coaching. Even the pros get it.

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danielcroft

As mentioned, get more canopy coaching on the wing you have (sounds like you already have that organized, which is good) as that will not only provide you with an opportunity to learn but also some advice about how to proceed. When you say "mess with front riser turns" it suggests that you're trying random stuff and aren't really taking a structured approach which can lead to serious problems. Regardless of what you're flying, not respecting your wing is a good way to get hurt. You might have just said it that way for laughs but, remember, when you're online, no one hears how you're saying it so, try to be specific.



thx for the insight Dan.

One of our swoopers at the DZ coached me on the ground when I talked to him about starting performance landings. Had a couple high pulls where I experienced with double fronts, harness turns etc etc. which I did before but not really paying attention to altitude loss.


So when I say "mess with", understand "experience with"

My routine is extremely well planned out. My audible beeps at about 270 feet, that's when I surge my wing, I proceed to pulling both my fronts for about 2 seconds and initiate a 90 degree harness turn.

When I am done with all this and my wing has completed its recovery, I have about 30 to 45 feet of spare height, depending on the weather conditions.

I have tried a Sabre 2 as well as an Elektra and I felt they were diving easier while still having quite a positive recovery arc, and that's why I posted in the first place. I love my Safire mainly for the openings and the fact that I can really take my time to set things up with it, but it's definitely the most conservative one out of the 3.

thx guys.
Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

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You're interested in a very exciting and for me next to MX the most beautiful sport and you jump fairly often, keep up the good work =)

Soo...

Quote

My routine is extremely well planned out.


:D:D:D:D
You went through 2 canopy control courses plus additional coaching and you don't even manage to pull your slider down/ widening up your chest strap or to calculate your correct WL? Additionally your approach looks overly frantic. Yanking here, pulling there, wondering why it didn't generate any power/ popped out of the turn to high...
Give it more time and most importantly more altitude.
Clean up your turn, understand the concept of smoothly turning an airfoil and I bet you can up your initiation altitude to at least 400+ ft (and finally resulting into something you could call a swoop)


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The Safire2/Sabre2 will frustrate you at times because any mistake you make during the turn will seem to cause the canopy to "auto-recover", but it's a wing/progression that shouldn't be tossed aside for convenience's sake.



I'd love to shake your hands for that sentence!
You need to become very consistent and clean to manage good swoops on those canopies but you will be so much safer of on more advanced profils.


Internet swoop coaching is stupid and dangerous. If you didn't learn basic canopy control until now go off the internet and do those canopy classes again, maybe with a different coach, as the last one seems to have failed :P;)
Knowing where I and many of my friends were swoopingwise with 250 jumps I also kinda doubt this number. No offence intended, but you wouldn't be the first one tampering jump numbers to avoid discussions about stupid fast downsizing :)
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Blis


Just a few things from your video
-Your slider is not pulled down (and your chest strap is probaply tight)


in this case the slider wasn't pulled down, but my chest strap is always loosened to the max.
Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

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cool man. I suck more than you and your homies when you had the same jump numbers.

I very much apologize for that.


I'll go back to the real world now. One more failed attempt at having an online discussion.
Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

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I'll go back to the real world now. One more failed attempt at having an online discussion.



Let's try a real discussion Two questions (both of which have already been mentioned)

1) Why were you using heavy toggle input directly after letting go the front risers, and what effect do you think this had on your recovery arc?

2) What benefit do you gain from loosening the chest strap if you haven't lowered your slider?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Blis


Just a few things from your video
-Your slider is not pulled down (and your chest strap is probaply tight)
-toggle input right after turn, that's a big no-no
-stay on your fronts longer before the turn (3secs)?
-Your turn looked more like 45' than 90', use risers instead of harness?

I love when someone with 243 jumps is giving swoop advice to someone with 250 jumps, online too. LOL Not bad advice but funny.

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jakee

Quote

I'll go back to the real world now. One more failed attempt at having an online discussion.



Let's try a real discussion Two questions (both of which have already been mentioned)

1) Why were you using heavy toggle input directly after letting go the front risers, and what effect do you think this had on your recovery arc?

2) What benefit do you gain from loosening the chest strap if you haven't lowered your slider?



I'm gonna add to this...

1. Please don't initiate a surge/bump/depressurizing move (toggle flare and release) at that low of an altitude. While the chances are low, the possibility still remains of you encountering an outside force that could cause the canopy to collapse and you are so low that there is no way you can recover in time to save yourself.

2. Blis is right re: the chest strap. Even if you pull the slider down, loosening it isn't going to affect the canopy directly as your slider is still restricting how far your MLW can spread. It will make you more comfortable. That said, pulling the slider down will allow the risers to "fan out" more and flatten out the canopy.

3. I'm not sure what your "turn" consists of. You do a quick surge, grab the fronts, quickly rotate, and then begin a flare which you stop with about 1/3 to 1/2 input. What's your thought process behind it?

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dqpacker


Just a few things from your video
-Your slider is not pulled down (and your chest strap is probaply tight)
-toggle input right after turn, that's a big no-no
-stay on your fronts longer before the turn (3secs)?
-Your turn looked more like 45' than 90', use risers instead of harness?

I love when someone with 243 jumps is giving swoop advice to someone with 250 jumps, online too. LOL Not bad advice but funny.

Dont worry, I'm just repeating the same things my coaches have taught me...

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jakee

Quote

I'll go back to the real world now. One more failed attempt at having an online discussion.



Let's try a real discussion Two questions (both of which have already been mentioned)

1) Why were you using heavy toggle input directly after letting go the front risers, and what effect do you think this had on your recovery arc?

2) What benefit do you gain from loosening the chest strap if you haven't lowered your slider?



1) I wanted so stay parallel to the landing zone and not interfere with anyone in the pattern. I am aware it's not ideal, but felt I had to correct my trajectory.

2)I have only recently (30 jumps or so)started to put my slider behind my head.My old rig was very big for me and the slider wouldn't really stay in position as I would be sitting way down in the harness. Issue fixed with my new Curv.
Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

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hokierower


I'm gonna add to this...

1. Please don't initiate a surge/bump/depressurizing move (toggle flare and release) at that low of an altitude. While the chances are low, the possibility still remains of you encountering an outside force that could cause the canopy to collapse and you are so low that there is no way you can recover in time to save yourself.

2. Blis is right re: the chest strap. Even if you pull the slider down, loosening it isn't going to affect the canopy directly as your slider is still restricting how far your MLW can spread. It will make you more comfortable. That said, pulling the slider down will allow the risers to "fan out" more and flatten out the canopy.

3. I'm not sure what your "turn" consists of. You do a quick surge, grab the fronts, quickly rotate, and then begin a flare which you stop with about 1/3 to 1/2 input. What's your thought process behind it?



1. This is the altitude and the procedure my DZO told me to work from. So I'll talk to her about your point.

2.Already dressed this. Since I got my new rig, I can, and do stow my slider behind my head.

3. I extend my arms to the max, so I am not sure what you are talking about flaring at 1/2 input. My thought process is pretty simple, since it's a tiny DZ with only 3 to 4 people capable of teaching me(who dont really want to take the time, and are busy doing video work), I pretty much try on my own. Hence the coaching I just booked next month.
Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

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As mentioned, I'm no swooper. But even I can point out a few things that you did that were wrong in that video. It was very sloppy, and I think you know that.

I think your gut reaction of going back to the real world is probably your best bet. Go and get coaching from a non-internet someone that knows their shit and has some medals and teaching experience to prove it (PD canopy courses?). Random "awesome swooper" at your home DZ will probably be hit or miss.

That'll be way more constructive than having ten people debate whether loosening your chest strap is beneficial if you don't put your slider behind your head (it is, but less than if you do put your slider behind your head), and ten more telling you how much you suck and that you're definitely going to break yourself or something.

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I'm surprised nobody told him yet to add some more Gopros, so that we can watch his

Quote

extremely well planned out routine

from more angles and learn from him =D

To the OP:

Yes, it is beneficial to learn to swoop under a canopy like yours.
You don't need more of an answer and we don't need more of your landing videos.
Now go back playing in the real world =)


is anybody on the internetz so quickly offended nowadays?
I'm having the fun of my life reading the responses, am I going to hell for it? :$
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lyosha

As mentioned, I'm no swooper. But even I can point out a few things that you did that were wrong in that video. It was very sloppy, and I think you know that.



Of course I do. Let me just remind y'all that the title of the post wasn't "look at that awesome shit !"

Posted the video to get feedback. Some people are educated enough to be able to give that said feedback. Some are just germans.
Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

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