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maggyrider

PD Prototype

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Shortly after the official release of the PD Valkyrie there has been this Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nkok0Tn0z4) posted. I haven't heard any news about this canopy since then, which seems to feature the new Schuman inspired planform on a non-crossbraced design.
Does anybody have rumours, pictures or any other news to satisfy my curiosity?
Nice words are not always true - and true words are not always nice.

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I emailed PD asking about this last week. They said that they are working on a couple of projects that were inspired by the development of the Valk and that they fall into different categories, but at that time they were unable to tell me where in the line they would fit in and when they would be released. They said it could be a matter of months or years.

So sounds like possibly more than one new canopy that has been born from designing and jumping the Valk but no confirmed dates on when any of these will be released.

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stayhigh

Hopefully they release it before Crossfire 3, first so that Icarus fanboys can stop saying what and who came out first.



got your knickers in a bunch because icarus is more awesome and rad? that's cool! B|
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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I just love that every discussion on wings degenerates into tribalism. Hey, anyone seen video or pictures of the Fluid Helix/HK yet? Did they copy PD or NZA? :S

The Schuemann-y* planform has been used in speed flying and sail planes and paragliding for literally YEARS if you want to make the case that someone copied someone, maybe try making a better case than something you could learn on Sesame Street?

/rant

As to the subject at hand, NZA already said they were working on a couple of different versions of the Crossfire 3 and they've released info about the Safire 3 as well. Sounds like maybe PD is revamping more than just the KA if they're talking about multiple projects? I kind of assumed it was the KA they were working on but, who knows.

I'm stoked that we're all able to take advantage of the competition between two great companies. With Fluid coming onto the market, we may really get to see some epic competition and you know what? WE win. B|

* There's been some discussion about whether or not a wing needs to have 100% of its taper on the leading edge to be considered a Schuemann planform. I look at it like a continuum but that's not necessarily accurate.

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stayhigh

Pretty soon all canopies are going to have round nose, except student canopy.

Next step is different cascade configuration, and getting rid of D lines.



I hope not. Those are less stable in turbulence without the increased speed. I think all elliptical canopies will have a round nose.

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The new "elliptical" womp womp...

I assume that these fly performance (?) / style-wise (?) somewhat similar to XB wings at least insofar as the companies have incorporated lots of lessons learned about what people want. I do wonder the market segment...does a far superior / more efficient airfoil design obviate the need for a XB at (entry level WL) to get the same or similar performance...ignoring the benefits of rigidity / distortion resistance Eric etc etc. maybe they're also marketed at joe jumper that flies a XF or KA somewhere around 1.5-1.8/9 that doesn't swoop but likes the way they open, fly etc etc.

Merely curious.

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I'm not sure that the new designs are meant to fly like cross braced wings, I think they're applying lessons learnt in the development of Shuemann-y planform wings (Petra, Peregrine, Leia, Valkyrie). I read Schuemann's paper on the benefits of the design (can't remember which article it was linked on) but they apply to all wings (as far as I could gather) making the wing more efficient over all. Cross bracing, is meant to reduce distortion of parachutes (ok, simplified) which makes them more efficient as well. Maybe you meant some other characteristic? Higher roll rate or something?

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Yeah, dunno. Just speculating I guess. Outside of thinness of profile, resistance to distortion etc etc I was thinking of things like: longer recovery arc / ability to keep in a dive, riser responsivness / controllability, greater sensitivity to harness input etc. I assume that both companies have asked: if we made a new everyday (?) wing on the high(er) end of the performance spectrum...what would you want it to do? Likewise, having not flown XB wondering how updates would transfer to a conventional wing. I wasn't around for the previous leaps...square/elliptical/XB...so just wondering if this is similar.

Plus, I'm bored and happen to think both products are pretty dead sexy.

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Ha ha, fair enough, mate. :D

Well, many of the attributes you've listed could be attributed to the Katana so, not sure if they're aiming to replicate that. I've always felt that there was a gap in PD's canopy lineup between the Sabre 2, Stiletto and, Katana. John LeBlank describes the KA and ST on different branches (it's was a BPA presentation where I saw him describe it that way) but, for me, the step from Sabre 2 to KA is pretty big and, unless you're mostly swooping, I think a KA isn't a great wing (even though I like it). The ST (which I also like) has such a short recovery arc, someone who'd like to swoop occasionally doesn't have a good option there, either. I'm hoping that the new wing is a KA replacement that's a little less ridiculous than the KA. If they're talking about multiple projects like someone suggested, I'd like to see the ST updated but keep the same basic idea. When I call the KA ridiculous, I mean that it has a long recovery arc, a negative recovery cycle and requires pilot attention and, as such isn't a great option for someone who's not dedicated to their canopy.

As far as the Crossfire 3, I feel like the XF2 is a little short on the recovery arc as well, so, we don't actually have a nice, middle of the road canopy that has a reasonable recovery arc but is also fun to fly. I've been told by a lot of people that the XF2 is actually pretty close to the Sabre 2 in terms of recovery arc although, with about 200 jumps on an XF2, I didn't think it was that bad. NZA is talking about 3 different, new wings. I'd like to see a XF3 with a longer recovery arc, a Safire 3 that's just a bit more efficient (loved jumping the Safire 2 169 I had for a while) and maybe the second version of the XF3 be the successor to the XF2.

Ideally, we'd end up with 3 different wings from both PD and NZA all, more or less, competing with each other. That gives us all options. Ideally, the high performance versions of the KA2 (or whatever) and XF3 HP would be shorter recoveries than the KA, the ST2 and XF3 (regular) would just make those platforms more efficient and the Safire3 will do the same there. You'd have to imagine that PD will come with a Sabre3 at that point but who knows?

As far as the Valkyrie goes compared to the Comp Velo, I've had a couple of MUCH more experienced canopy pilots tell me that the VK actually is a little shorter recovering because it's more efficient. They felt pretty similar to me, to be honest but I'm not pushing to the ragged edge.

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The characteristic that comes to mind that the rigid xbraced wings excel at (and from what I understand, the new planform does even better at) that would be desirable in most wings is bottom end/slow speed flight.

When you think of the middle of the road wings, you don't probably want the long recovery, or even the super responsiveness. The most common complaint I hear on those wings, from people who otherwise love them- bottom end.

Not sure it's possible, but think of how huge that market is, and if you could come out with the next wing anywhere in the Pulse/Safire/Sabre2/Xf2 range with significantly better bottom end...there would be tons of money to be made. Katana 2 comes to mind, but the lower level market is significantly bigger.

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Judging from the shape of the wing and how PD has confirmed that it was inspired by the peregrine and valkyrie projects, it's more than likely a step up from the Katana. I do agree with an earlier post, that making the jump from a sabre 2 to a katana presents a steep learning curve for the pilot. It seems that these companies are hyper-focusing on the outer edge of the high performance category in part due to competition but I'm hoping that a line between the sabre 2 and katana is available soon.

On a side note, I think it would also be beneficial for PD to look into a better performing wing on the stiletto side of the branch for those jumpers who don't care about swooping but like a flat gliding, toggle whipping, strong flaring canopy. Maybe a stiletto 2?? Jumpers who have tapped out their stilettos basically have to downsize to a smaller one or find a completely different wing altogether that may not suit their style of flying.

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stayhigh

In between Sabre and Katana...

You mean the Crossfire?


I wouldn't put he XF2 in the middle of the ST and KA anyway, it's too short a recovery IMO.

As far as being higher performance than the KA, I guess the roll rates could be much higher, like the VK over the VC.

Stiletto 2 would be awesome. :D

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Stiletto 2 would be awesome.



+1

PD did something right when they designed the Stiletto and it is still a great canopy. It would be interesting to consider how the original (or current?) Stiletto design could be tweaked to make a 'Version 2', but that would be a bit off topic for this thread.

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When it first came out, people refereed to the Katana as the "stiletto 2". Wing shape looks almost identical and it has some improvements people were wanting (better bottom end/openings), but the dive characteristics made it more like a Velocity minus than a Stiletto Plus.

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flyhi

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those jumpers who don't care about swooping but like a flat gliding, toggle whipping, strong flaring canopy



Could you define what that means?



Most stiletto owners make use of the elliptical wing and enjoy the snappy turns with the toggles. Usually done up high and not as a speed inducing turn for swooping.

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Zlew

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Usually done up high and not as a speed inducing turn for swooping.



In the old days they did it down low, and broke a lot of femurs.



Not THAT long ago...


You see it a lot in speedflying now. High bank turns with little bursts of altitude loss to duck down to the ground.

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