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cmulli4

Valkyrie 67 demo first jumps

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Hey Charlie,

I really appreciate the time you've taken to reply. Too often (particularly via the internet where intent can easily be misconstrued) people take caution or critisism poorly. At no point did I mean to put down the level of skill or dedication you've shown in getting to where you are, but I'm a firm believer that we're never good enough not to keep thinking and learning.

Some people are exceptional. Their talent and dedication allows them to do things which the rest of us can only watch and go 'wow' at. The best of those people plan every detail as far as they can and go out of their way to keep others safe. The obvious examples are the factory team and demo guys. I've never met you, but your flying and explanation of how you got there seems to put you into that category.

My issue is that for every one of you, there are a dozen other guys who THINK they're that good because of their jump numbers... (sometimes I wish we could stop logging jumps and come up with a different way of explaining our proficiency).

This forum is a vast repository of knowledge; ranging from sublime to awful. I believe it's part of our responsibility to try educate people from things we've already seen before they go and do something stupid - Saying 'he shouldn't have been doing it' after an accident is far less useful than saying 'you probably shouldn't be doing that because...' earlier in the chain and possibly preventing the incident in the first place.

Look at this conversation as an example of what should happen - I made a comment and you've come back with a great explanation and education. All too often people are afraid to say anything to others who have a huge amount of experience, or when they do they get dismissed with a 'I've got x-thousand jumps' type of reply, even if their intent is to try to keep people safe and to encourage more thinking.

Even if my post got you thinking slightly about more 'what-if' scenarios, or gets others who read it to do the same, then it's a good result.

All the best. I look forward to seeing more videos!

-yoink-

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Hi,

Wanted to take a minute to try and explain the 3rd riser setup and the advantages and disadvantages of such a set up.

There are two main advantages to jumping thirds. The first and foremost is they help the canopy retain its rigidity. This is the reason we started crossbracing canopies to begin with so it just makes sense to get all we can. With traditional brakes the brake line is pulled inward towards the body and then down and out again. This is in effect "squeezing" the canopy. Since momma always told me not to do math in public let's use easy numbers. Say you are jumping a 100 sq.ft. canopy and normal brakes deform the canopy by 5% but thirds effectively eliminate this problem. With the traditional setup you are actually landing a 95 which means a higher ground speed. I don't know the actual numbers off hand but it is significant. Back in the days when a 120 was considered small it was less significant but with today's 60/70 sq.ft. canopies it is a huge difference. Just like with crossbracing you can jump a smaller canopy resulting in faster speeds and longer swoops and still have a usuable landing speed.

The second reason doesn't actually affect the performance of the parachute but to me is equally important. The "twitchy" feeling someone described is something I would say 95% of people jumping them for the first time (including me) say. This feeling is because normal brakes, again bringing the line toward the body then down and back out act as a damper. You get more feel for what the canopy is doing and more control with thirds. For the pilots out there it is like the difference in flying a 182 vs a fighter (I've done both). It is quite a bit easier to over control the canopy with thirds. Indeed I've seen more than one person come in on the verge of losing control and swear to never jump them again. However, usually once someone gets used to it they swear by them. It is in effect, taking the training wheels off. In fact, I am so used to them now I feel I almost can't control a normal rig. I won't jump a small canopy without them.

Disadvantages. Apart from what I've already touched on the only real disadvantage is packing. Keep in mind third "risers" don't actually have to be risers. I use a string set up to reduce bulk and drag. However it is quite easy to rig them wrong packing resulting in a twist. It's no big deal, just one more hassle when you've got a lot of other stuff going on. Additionally you can absolutely use both thirds and rears. In fact if you look at Charlie's video he is doing that very thing.

Cheers and let me know if you have questions.

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Rig the toggle (set the brake) like you would for a top ring. The third riser doesn't take any load, it is just there to make sure your toggle doesn't go bye-bye if you let it go. The bottom of the string or tape can be sewn to your mains. Imagine the line mod on a slider down base rig, but with a keeper for your toggle. Some dacron line is easy to fingertrap around a set of metal guide rings...

As an aside, years ago I had a buddy who rigged up a pair of triple risers on his Sabre 150 neglecting to run the brake lines through the slider and made about 30 jumps with it. Every opening was super hard, but no line overs. Ended up getting shoulder surgery.

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So if you're not putting the LCL through the guide ring on the (rear) riser, do you have to add a loop of material to the brake setting like those found on BASE rigs and Tandem brake settings to pull through the guide ring? Or are you still setting the brakes in the standard keeper? Or is your (third) riser length built to position that guide ring over the toggle setting on the rear riser?

Seems to me you would be risking a toggle fire without the guide ring to lock the toggle when setting brakes using only the rear riser setting?
"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

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If you bought a pair of triple risers, they would most likely have a LRT toggle setup, with the loop. You don't need the loop, though if you make your own. Remove your toggle from the brake line, remove the brake line from the keeper ring. Reattach the toggle to the brake line and pass the brake stow cat's eye through the keeper ring and stow the toggle. Test it by pulling up on the brake line and unstow. It will release the brake and the line will run free to the canopy. Now you need to trap the brake line somehow. You can pass the brake line through a ring on your rear riser soft link, or build a third riser.

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" mad skills" is usually meant as a derogatory term. Charlie truly owns the skill set to deserve that term. I have been impressed by his skills as both as body pilot and a canopy pilot since he was 14 years old. haven't seen you in decades so glad to see you're still rocking it man.B|B|

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .


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I have always had a rigger do mine so it looks tight and professional. Basically he sows a piece of Dacron into the base of the riser. The dacron is usually about the same length as a riser. On the top of the third finger trap a standard ring. Just as someone else said undo the toggle, pass the brake line through the ring on the third and reattach. And yes I would recommend passing the brake line through the slider. Packing is essentially the same except you pass the brake stow line (not sure what this is actually called) through the brake line and then the third. This is where you want to make sure the third is not wrapped around the actual riser. I always give a tug on the brake line above the stow point to seat it. After that it's ops normal.

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Quote

There's probably a reason no competitive swooper does a 180 one way followed by a 270 another.



Yeah - why would you generate energy, and then waste a bunch of it changing direction. Nevermind the inability to accurately predict altitude loss.....

That video demonstrates some seriously questionable technique and decision making. No offense Charlie.

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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Rad

Out of curiosity, if a turn is performed at the same angle, how can reversing possibly waste energy?



It's kills your acceleration and starts the deceleration phase while the canopy is still trying to dive and wants to accelerate. Even if you maintain the airspeed you've built, you stop accelerating and acceleration(not just speed) all the way through the corner is the 'golden key to the kingdom!!!'

Thanks for stepping up and saying something Ian!!B|

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cmulli4

It would be very unfortunate if 2-3 years someone had to eat their words.



Would have been better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you're an idiot but instead you opened it and removed all doubt!!! Better bump up that initiation altitude and train with some people who know what's up if you want to be competitive. Oh wait... competing requires wearing a hard helmet:S

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkKtC0SVuNE

In this video link I counted ZERO people who had to use toggles to get their canopy out of the dive. But they're just World Championship competitors so what would they know...

In your videos I counted ZERO swoops where you didn't have to use your toggles to recover. There's a reason people get booted from comps for flying their shit like that! If you're honestly proud of your approach and these videos, it shows how very little respect you have for the wing you're flyingB|

Moderator if I'm out of line please feel free to remove this post but I'd bet it will probably stay in the interest of showing people what not to do:ph34r:

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I'd love for that to happen. I remember the days when everyone said anything above a 270 was a waste. Technology changed and our knowledge and application of physics and aerodynamics has improved to give us 170 meter distance swoops. It would be interesting if you were proven right.

Perhaps you could explain the advantages of this type of turn - because I with my limited knowledge see only drawbacks.

It's harder to set up and to predict altitude loss compared to a traditional 450. In addition to that, it's more complicated visually and getting the pictures right will take longer.

The change of direction will bleed, not gain energy. Targetting appears more complicated than a 450 or 630 due to the direction change.

Maybe throw on a FlySigh GPS for your turn. I have a bunch of 630 degree turns on a Valkyrie-75 you can compare with. That way we have objective data to compare.

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Well you know...there are idiots all around lime me. I ceartinly hope you can help me...in order to not be such an idiot. I know that there are better people than me, but...thanks for reminding me. And, I do wear a hard helmet. Look at the rest of the videos.

One day, maybe I will be like you. I will conform to the populous belief of a single sided turn and I can only hope that I will be great like you and Ian.

Charlie

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cmulli4

Well you know...there are idiots all around lime me. I ceartinly hope you can help me...in order to not be such an idiot. I know that there are better people than me, but...thanks for reminding me. And, I do wear a hard helmet. Look at the rest of the videos.

One day, maybe I will be like you. I will conform to the populous belief of a single sided turn and I can only hope that I will be great like you and Ian.

Charlie



You don't get it Charlie... If your technique is so amazing why haven't you set any distance or speed world records?

People come to this forum to learn how to be better canopy pilots over all sizes and wing loadings. You're acting like flying your canopy dangerously close to it's recovery limit on a consistent basis is cool. NOT COOL AT ALL!! I couldn't care less about your initiation non-sense and what direction you rotate, but you're coming out of it WAY TOO LOW and trying to justify it. Then when you can't justify it you turn into a man-child and make ludicrous remarks like the one I quoted above. If you want to be a bad influence, keep it at your DZ.

I know old dogs don't learn knew tricks but I don't want younger jumpers thinking this is how Canopy Piloting has evolved as a discipline. Downright embarrassing>:(

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