0
mrkeske

Low jumpers and Stiletos

Recommended Posts

I'm seeing that some fellow jumpers in my region, back here in Brazil, are starting to jump Stiletos very early, at between 30-90 jumps. In all cases they are lightly loaded (at about 1.0/1.1). All theese jumpers jump with very low frequency (sometimes months between one jump an another). They have between 30 and 150 Jumps nowadays, and Jump sizes 190, 150(lighter guy) and 135(small guy).

All four jumpers I saw jumping, they landed it well without any issues. All of them considered it very fun to fly and "safe".

Since the Stileto is an eliptical canopy, I got a little worried. Should I be that worried? Is it OK for people with low jump numbers jump one, even if they fly it and land it safely?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I would be concerned. It's not that they are doomed or anything. But they are definitely at increased risk for making a mistake that could cause injury. Low experience is a risk factor, not being current is another risk factor, and a less forgiving canopy is another risk factor. These all add up, most jumps they will be fine. It's an adult sport, and Stilettos are a lot of fun. I got mine at about 225 jumps, loaded about the same as your friends. I wasn't ready for it, and I jumped a lot back then. Tell them I said good luck, and be careful.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've heard that as well (long time ago).

Anyway, I also started jumping elliptical canopies at low jump #s... but, I was super-current and started at light loadings, 1.2 or so. Don't remember when exactly but I tried various canopies: Jedei, Stiletto, Nitron, and Nitro.

So, yes you can "safely" jump more responsive canopies but you have to accept the risk when you do so.

I personally am okay with competent people jumping ellipticals as long as they aren't loading the crap out of them for their experience level.

My $0.02
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IMO all ellipticals are not created equal.

For example, the Stiletto and the Katana are very different animals. "Over-control" a Katana near the ground and it may drill you into a hole where the same input at the same altitude on a Stiletto may result in the natural recovery arc saving the jumper.

Doesn't really answer the OP's question, but worth thinking about.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mrkeske


Since the Stileto is an eliptical canopy, I got a little worried. Should I be that worried?



Yes.

The Stiletto is the most responsive canopy PD ever built. PD made all of the following canopies (Velocity, Katana) less sensitive to toggle input because John LeBlanc observed jumpers having problems with roll axis stability when landing their Stilettos.

Small control inputs will quickly put the canopy into a steep dive that is not recoverable at low altitudes whether or not that's what you intend.

Here's a Stiletto 150 fatality with just a 1.2 wing loading and 480 jumps:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3709212

The control sensitivity (especially with the brakes stowed) also makes the Stiletto more likely to spin up if you don't stay level during opening and deal with any problems immediately.

Quote


Is it OK for people with low jump numbers jump one, even if they fly it and land it safely?



No, because landing safely in a straight line doesn't predict a good landing when things go wrong like low turns to avoid unseen obstacles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
maybe a bit off topic, but why make a 190 stiletto anyway? 190 sqft is pretty much a student/early jumper's size (talking about 99% of cases), so what's the point of making an elliptical this size? And can you really benefit / feel the real effect of elliptical canopy in that size?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
skow

maybe a bit off topic, but why make a 190 stiletto anyway? 190 sqft is pretty much a student/early jumper's size (talking about 99% of cases), so what's the point of making an elliptical this size? And can you really benefit / feel the real effect of elliptical canopy in that size?



So you can catch thermals
FTMC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
skow

maybe a bit off topic, but why make a 190 stiletto anyway? 190 sqft is pretty much a student/early jumper's size (talking about 99% of cases), so what's the point of making an elliptical this size? And can you really benefit / feel the real effect of elliptical canopy in that size?



190 is quite small compared to a 300-400 sqft tandem.
Back in the days suggested WL was lower, than these days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
skow

maybe a bit off topic, but why make a 190 stiletto anyway? 190 sqft is pretty much a student/early jumper's size (talking about 99% of cases), so what's the point of making an elliptical this size? And can you really benefit / feel the real effect of elliptical canopy in that size?



The PD website states the following wingloading maximums for the ST190:

Absolute 1.5 (285lbs)
Expert 1.4 (266lbs)
Advanced 1.2 (228lbs)
Intermediate 0.8 (152lbs)

There are plenty of jumpers with an exit weight in the 260-280 range. With a Stiletto they can enjoy an elliptical within the manufacturer's limits.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've jumped
Safire 169 and Crossfire 169. Both loading at like 1.2
and
I've jumped
Sabre2 170 and Katana 170 @1.2

I much rather fly Katana or X-fire. Even with light wingloading they still fly like a Katana or X-fire should. Both flairs much better than same sized non-elliptical and they both respond better to the rear riser. Not to mention much better openings.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The issue for me is learning and using emergency response techniques. Flat turns, flare turns etc (http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html - says downsizing checklist but these are canopy survival skills) on an elliptical wing is going to be less forgiving. They'll likely be fine (like people are saying) until the shit hits the fan - do they really know how to fly their wing safely? You could argue that, with so few jumps, they probably wouldn't know on any wing but the mistakes made are exacerbated by a higher performance wing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
From my profile:

Main: Pulse 210 ft² (1.24 lbs/ft²)
Reserve: PD Reserve 176 ft² (1.48 lbs/ft²)

I've been jumping at the above wingloadings since jump 30.

And can tick the box for all the suggested things you need to be confident in doing before considering downsizing.
I have Jumped a sabre 2 190 a few times already and felt comfortable under it.

Edited to add;

I thought I had a problem with no wind landings when I was jumping club kit (huge 290 student canopy) and it actually turned out that it was due to the lack of response a de-powered student canopy has rather than my technique, as soon as I got my own rig (as listed above) I had the no wind landing sorted, I love a no wind landing these days!

I've also done canopy courses and conversed with instructors etc.
I don't have mad skills though!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JBR


Reserve: PD Reserve 176 ft² (1.48 lbs/ft²)


Just in case you haven't already read it:

Quote

WING LOADINGS ABOVE 1.4 LBS/SQ.FT, AND BELOW THE MAXIMUM SUSPENDED
WEIGHT:
This is a very high wing loading. Turn rates, forward speed and rates of descent will all be very high.
A very high experience level is required to get an acceptable landing, even under ideal landing conditions.
Control range may be very short, with stalls happening very abruptly, with little warning. This situation
can be very dangerous. Performance Designs advises all jumpers, regardless of experience, that it
is safer to choose a lower wing loading than this level. However, Performance Designs recognizes that
there are a few individuals that have a great deal of experience and skill flying a main parachutes in this
wing loading, and are determined to use reserves in the same wing loading. While this is legal (if the
conditions below are met), it is very hazardous. There are relatively few jumpers that are capable of
handling this situation. At a minimum, jumpers must meet the follow requirements:
 At least 500 ram-air canopy jumps and at least 100 jumps on a ram-air canopy that is no more
than 15% larger than the reserve parachute
-or-
 Have an endorsement in their log book from an instructor who has the proper ratings issued to
them by their countries governing association stating that:
• The jumper has been given instruction in high wing loading canopies.
• The maximum wing loading the individual has demonstrated that they can safely
handle.
• The wing loading for the reserve parachute must not exceed the maximum demon
strated wing loading

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JBR


Main: Pulse 210 ft² (1.24 lbs/ft²)
Reserve: PD Reserve 176 ft² (1.48 lbs/ft²)

I've been jumping at the above wingloadings since jump 30.



First, the "I've been doing it for 98 jumps and nothing has gone wrong" argument doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.

Second, you demoed that PDR 176? Or jumped it for reals? Because 1.5 on a reserve is serious business, and I'm definitely more than a little worried about someone with just over 100 jumps being under a canopy that is 1) two sizes smaller than what he normally jumps and 2) one size smaller than he's ever jumped ... when the shit has just hit the fan.

Reserve landings are sometimes routine, meaning you're right over the landing area, and you get to bring it into the same nice, smooth, flat spot that you'd have landed your main. But a lot of times, they're not ... you pitched at a good spot to get you safely back to the landing area under your main... but then you had to deal with a malfunction and you're now under your reserve quite a bit lower than you would have been under your main. You've just gone from a flat, gliding, lighter-loaded 9 cell (I fly a Pulse, I know how incredible they are at getting you back), to a more steeply-trimmed 7-cell that's loaded quite a bit heaver. Now you've got to find yourself a landing area that may not be your main landing area, and that just might suck. And you might, just might be a little pumped with adrenaline what with the whole malfunction excitement.

Sure you wanna be under that 176?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JBR

I love this place.



I know, right? It totally sucks when people take the time to write a thoughtful response to get you to perhaps think about something a little differently. Those grumpy old fart skydivers are such a bunch of assholes.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JBR

I wrote that last comment knowing that whatever I wrote would get me a flaming. I still love this place.



You and I have very different definitions of flaming. :)
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quagmirian


Just in case you haven't already read it:


yeah, but the hell does PD know about canopies anyway...
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JBR

I wrote that last comment knowing that whatever I wrote would get me a flaming. I still love this place.



I'd re-read her post a few times mate. Consider demoing that reserve, hooked up as a main (if your CCI would even let you jump it!!).. It's really good experience flying a copy of YOUR reserve under ideal conditions.

P.S She never flamed you (some here would!!), but I think that you knew that.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0