Marc84 0 #1 July 19, 2014 So I'm looking for some input. The drop zone that I currently jump at is looking to ban any turns that are more than 90°. We recently had one of our jumpers pass away doing the Hi-performance landing at another DZ. The drop zone's owners daughter's fiancé was actually killed in 1997 doing a Hi performance Landing as well. Is there any arguments that I can use to hopefully persuade him to still allow responsible canopy piloting at his DZ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #2 July 20, 2014 Feel sorry for you dude. You'll see that all the younger guys will move to the other dz, if the other dz is close enough. What's next for you guys?? It is going to be a canopy traffic nazi that sits out at the landing area, talking shit about doing 110 degree turns. Skydiving is just not that fun to come down from a great jump and get bitched at for doing somewhere between 90 to 150 degree turn. For fucks sake, sometimes you have to turn little more here and there to level out perfect. No one wants to spend 25 bucks and come out high, we certainly don't wanna be low either. Without little adjustment, it is incredibly difficult to hook a perfect 90 degree turn. Oh I just did a 105 degree turn so that I don't end up 5 ft high off the ground? Shit sorry dude, I'll land so far away that your magical protractor can't be reached. My rant out. Look at it this way, 90 degree turn requires way more precision at lower altitude, so therefore you need to be one point in order to swoop massive distance. It will make you a better canopy pilot. Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marc84 0 #3 July 20, 2014 Thanks for the Rant If I can't sway his opinion I'm definitely taking my comp velocities to another drop zone. Unfortunately that's an hour and a half away from me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #4 July 20, 2014 If possible, hopefully dzo will let some of you, the proven, elite, chosen ones to continue doing big turns.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridebmxbikes 0 #6 July 20, 2014 I make a hour and a half drive every weekend. It aint a bad drive. Its worth it to rock out a sweet 270! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyhays 86 #7 July 20, 2014 Organize all the swoopers and have someone speak for the group. If you have large enough numbers and are willing to walk if the ban goes through it may be enough to persuade him.“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridebmxbikes 0 #8 July 20, 2014 tonyhaysOrganize all the swoopers and have someone speak for the group. If you have large enough numbers and are willing to walk if the ban goes through it may be enough to persuade him. Get even non swoopers to back you up too! Losing canopy pilots at the dz will be a very valuable resource lost at the dz. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pablo.Moreno 0 #9 July 20, 2014 Two weeks ago at I hit a 345ft swoop with only a 90 making the gates. You can still do some pretty decent swoops doing 90s, and I think, if you are planing doing anything bigger, doing a lot of jumps in a short period of time on a pond is a way better idea for training purpose rather than learning to do anything bigger on a solid ground within working jumps. If you think about it would be nearly impossible to learn how fly head down doing maybe 4 jumps a weekend, and there isn't a tunnel for canopy piloting. If you already have your set up for anything bigger than a 90 and that's what you do on any given jump (allowing conditions) then adding this rule would really suck and might drive you to another dropzone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigelh 0 #10 July 20, 2014 The 90 rule is apparently also meant to reduce the chance of a collision but I recently jumped at a DZ that had a 90 only rule and I think it made canopy traffic more difficult, constantly holding off for the larger lower canopies that are on long finals, with bigger turns the responsible canopy pilot can get down and out the way quicker freeing up the airspace for others-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Sponored by NZ Aerosports, CYPRES 2, Tonfly & L&B Team Dirty Sanchez #232 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #11 July 20, 2014 90 will get you far and you can still do freestyle but things are so much easier with bigger turn. With 90s you have to be super precise, I think it is way more difficult to get a bomb swoop out of 90 vs anything bigger than 270. Although I have to admit, once I go over 630 my landing becomes worse. But nothing beats the feeling of charged up canopy, and sound of my ditter screaming that I'm still in freefall. My dz banned big turns due to high traffic issue with small tiny grass area. However we still face canopy traffic issue. Like the guy above me said, they turn for their final at 600ft if not higher, and they all tend to set up their final turn half mile away from the target. Since all the belly dudes jumps one of these boats, they get out before the freefliers and they just sit there. So either I have to pull high and sit on breaks(not fun, especially when there is dust devils and shit), or I pull low-ish and sprial the fuck out of myself and get in front of them. Funny thing is that when they have belly big way, the canopy traffic goes to shit, little more than half of the group stands up their landing. And when they have freefly big way, I'm talking 60+, there is no canopy traffic issue, and about 95% of the stands it up. I wonder why???Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excaza 1 #12 July 21, 2014 stayhigh Funny thing is that when they have belly big way, the canopy traffic goes to shit, little more than half of the group stands up their landing. And when they have freefly big way, I'm talking 60+, there is no canopy traffic issue, and about 95% of the stands it up. I wonder why??? Probably because the belly guys are folks whose shit don't stink and want to s-turn and oscillate themselves around with toggles for the entire pattern and the freefliers just want to race to hook themselves into the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 79 #13 July 21, 2014 Imagine the DZ as an airport and the traffic is landing the way you want to swoop. That is probably the reason for banning turns greater than 90 degrees in the "Landing" pattern. As long as the landing areas are separate and predictable, I don't see a problem. Unfortunately, that is rarely the case.Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #14 July 21, 2014 stayhighFunny thing is that when they have belly big way, the canopy traffic goes to shit, little more than half of the group stands up their landing. Swooping never was the problem, it's a force multiplier for mistakes is all. For the OP - I think that a waiver and sign off procedure for swoopers to be OKed to do 270+º turns is probably reasonable but it kinda depends on your landing area. Perris has that. Is the plan to ban 270+º turns even on a low pass? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zlew 0 #15 July 21, 2014 Possible points for your argument- Unintended consequences- People will do other things to get the speed/thrill. I'd expect higher wing loadings, more down winders, and more aggressive turns/dives from lower altitudes. Many DZ's are separating out landing areas with turn restrictions in the main landing areas, but not in designated swoop areas. Maybe push for that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #16 July 21, 2014 Zlew Many DZ's are separating out landing areas with turn restrictions in the main landing areas, but not in designated swoop areas. Maybe push for that? That was going to be my suggestion if it's not in place already. I'm coming from it from the perspective of someone who does standard patterns, but who also appreciates and respects swooping. I greatly appreciate the dropzones where the landing patterns are well-established and well-separated because it helps me to know what to look for and where. For example this weekend at Skydance we had three teams training - two FS 4-way teams (all 10 of whom typically do a standard pattern) and a 2-way VFS team (all three of whom do high performance landings). We were often all on the same load. The two 4-way teams would stack up in the regular pattern with natural separation from wingloading and exit order. Because of their higher wingloadings but later exit order, the VFS team ended up coming in to land around the same time as the rest of us, but since we have fully separate patterns for standard and high-performance and have divided the landing area with a "line of death," it meant that I knew precisely where to look for them, where to expect their setups, and where I needed to stay to make sure I gave the all the room they needed. That's the way it should be ... mixing up different types of landings in one pattern doesn't help anyone. So if the DZO is going from a fully mixed pattern to getting rid of high-performance landings altogether, this would be a good interim step to propose that keeps traffic safer for all types of landings. But, from the OP, it sounds like the DZO may just be in a "tired of watching people pound themselves into the ground" mode which may make it harder to impact the decision, because the pounding can still happen even if you solve for the traffic issue. That's a harder nut to crack. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 417 #17 July 23, 2014 Marc84So I'm looking for some input. The drop zone that I currently jump at is looking to ban any turns that are more than 90°. We recently had one of our jumpers pass away doing the Hi-performance landing at another DZ. The drop zone's owners daughter's fiancé was actually killed in 1997 doing a Hi performance Landing as well. Is there any arguments that I can use to hopefully persuade him to still allow responsible canopy piloting at his DZ? I suggest having a candid conversation with the DZO to find out (not guessing based on history) the motivations behind the decision. You didn't mention the experience level or progression of the jumpers who died, but that should be part of the conversation. I jump at a large, progressive DZ with a lot of performance pilots and we have very few issues with performance landings. This is mainly because we have a culture that includes competent swoopers and DZ management that understand the discipline and polices it. Unless the incidents you guys have experienced are anomalies, there's a pretty good chance that they had something to do with jumpers getting in over their heads in wing loading and/or technique. I obviously can't know that but it is certainly a common element. We can be of more help if we know the DZO's reasoning. If the motivation is emotional, you will probably be up against a wall. If the DZO's stated decision is based on people screwing up, you have an argument - assuming you can fix that. Investigate and reply here, and I'm sure you will get lots of advice. And when it comes to support, don't forget to include folks like the experts at Performance Designs. I often pick the brains of the folks on the factory team to support my positions on canopy best practices and procedures and find their input invaluable.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 417 #18 July 23, 2014 nigelhThe 90 rule is apparently also meant to reduce the chance of a collision but I recently jumped at a DZ that had a 90 only rule and I think it made canopy traffic more difficult, constantly holding off for the larger lower canopies that are on long finals, with bigger turns the responsible canopy pilot can get down and out the way quicker freeing up the airspace for others Not to hijack the thread, but are you saying the responsible pilot starts from above people on final and makes a performance turn in front of them to land before them? Am I getting that right?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 278 #19 July 23, 2014 Oh crap. Yet another knee jerk reaction from the DZO who is trying to eliminate all sources of liability, real or imagined, at the DZ. He has already made AAD's mandatory (except for solo exits with short delays), floated the idea of mandatory 3000' minimum pull altitude, and banned anything but 3-ring releases. His goal (in my mind) is basically to have a tandem factory with no other sources of risk to his DZ that he has built up over 40+ years. Edit: The jumper who died had 2000+ jumps, been flying high performance canopies for years, e.g., a JVX by 2007, and recently a Comp Velo. He died doing just a 180 while not particularly current. (The Toronto area fatality early in July) He was known to push pretty hard in BASE and to some degree in skydiving. So the DZO could argue that anyone is liable to screw up sometime, which is true. The DZ has never had a fatality, which probably doesn't help matters for calming the DZO's nerves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
emmett751 0 #20 July 23, 2014 1) Have more coaching around the DZ teach people to be safe 2) High performance waiver maybe 3) Turns greater than 90 on dedicated passes only. 4) Spearate landing area for HP landing only. There are plenty of options to keep people safe and no of them involve banning a big part of the sport. If it were my home DZ that banned it, i would probably go somewhere else too... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivah1 0 #21 August 5, 2014 I'm getting tired of hearing this report. DZOs are looking at this all wrong in my opinion. If any discipline will take our sport into gaining outside major sponsorship, it will be swooping. No non-skydiver will pack up the family to head to the nearest dz to watch rw, or vrw...because they can't. Everything happens a couple miles up. But swooping is impressive right at ground level and it's bringing the crowds in when well-organized events take place. Are they huge crowds? Not right now. But as the technology increases, who knows what kind of capabilities we'll have to razzle and dazzle our fellow earth-walkers. How about being able to execute a full 360 flat turn mid-swoop? Freestyle specific canopies perhaps? As swooping gains more public attention, sponsors will notice and want to pump marketing dollars into it. That's good for skydiving in general. If the comp takes place at your dz, that's dollars in your pocket as DZO. On the other side of the coin I understand why a DZO might be tired of scraping a swooper off the tarmac. But overall we as skydivers should never forget who we are. We are progressive trail blazers and always will be. To try to legislate safety to the point it suffocates progression is far more dangerous in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 417 #22 August 6, 2014 skydivah1I'm getting tired of hearing this report. DZOs are looking at this all wrong in my opinion. If any discipline will take our sport into gaining outside major sponsorship, it will be swooping. No non-skydiver will pack up the family to head to the nearest dz to watch rw, or vrw...because they can't. Everything happens a couple miles up. But swooping is impressive right at ground level and it's bringing the crowds in when well-organized events take place. Are they huge crowds? Not right now. But as the technology increases, who knows what kind of capabilities we'll have to razzle and dazzle our fellow earth-walkers. How about being able to execute a full 360 flat turn mid-swoop? Freestyle specific canopies perhaps? As swooping gains more public attention, sponsors will notice and want to pump marketing dollars into it. That's good for skydiving in general. If the comp takes place at your dz, that's dollars in your pocket as DZO. On the other side of the coin I understand why a DZO might be tired of scraping a swooper off the tarmac. But overall we as skydivers should never forget who we are. We are progressive trail blazers and always will be. To try to legislate safety to the point it suffocates progression is far more dangerous in my opinion. Without commenting on the wisdom of banning specific behaviors, I respectfully disagree with your opinion on swoop comps drawing crowds. I have followed competitive CP since its inception, attended five CP Nationals and competed in one. The biggest "crowds" I've ever seen beyond skydivers and competitors' family and friends are the dozen or so locals that come out to watch for an hour or so, and most of them are the same guys that come to the DZ on a regular basis anyway. The general public simply isn't overly interested in watching swooping. To the uninitiated every swoop looks pretty much like all the rest, crash n burns notwithstanding. The typical comments I hear from whuffos at CP comps is "that was pretty cool", said as they walk to their cars after an hour +/- of watching. I believe if we want to draw a crowd with CP, the best way is to take CP to the crowd. A competition at a venue where there is already an audience like airshows, festivals, and other competitive sporting events might be the best way to promote the potential. People do like watching jumpers for a few minutes as they do at ballgames and opening ceremonies at airshows and auto races, but getting them to come just for a skydiving competition or exhibition has so far eluded us in any significant numbers and CP hasn't changed that.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #23 August 6, 2014 Agree with this guy for sure. Most of the general public cares about whether you can stand up or not. They don't give a shit about doing 630, they don't understand how hard it is to do a ghostrider, most won't even notice a switchblade, they will think blindman is kinda cool but we all know that most blindmans doesn't end up looking cool. Major sponsorship and competition will solve that problem, but who will come watch when the action happens too fast, and too little. And more importantly, there is very little market. Nike can't come in and sell their jumpsuits to the kids, Oakley aren't gonna replace all the goggles out there. All the other muilti billion dollar sport that was once a hobbie became big because; these big companies saw the dollar sign. That dollar sign showed the big companies that they can milk all these mom and dad so that their little kid can buy a wet suit and go surf, or buy Nike skateshoes and go skate, and wear quicksilver to school.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 603 #24 August 16, 2014 ***Oh crap. Yet another knee jerk reaction from the DZO who is trying to eliminate all sources of liability, real or imagined, at the DZ. ... banned anything but 3-ring releases. ... .................................................................................... Come on? 3-Ring were the most popular canopy release system 30 years ago. Why mess with success? Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 603 #25 August 16, 2014 What about rumors that some Quebec DZs are draining their swoop ponds because of similar worries about liabilities? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites