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roam82

swooping, sabre2's and progression

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Hi All,

I have a few questions about swooping, sabre2's and progression and being out of town on a job, I cant really ask my instructors.

- When doing 90 degree turns, I found that for them to work I need to initiate said turn quite low, under 300ft. am I doing something wrong or its normal on a sabre 2 loaded @ 1.45?

- Should I even bother with rear riser landing for now? transition time from fronts to rears seem to be quite short...

- At what wing loading it is best to transition to an elliptical canopy? 1.45 or higher?

Thanks !

R

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roam82

Hi All,

I have a few questions about swooping, sabre2's and progression and being out of town on a job, I cant really ask my instructors.

- When doing 90 degree turns, I found that for them to work I need to initiate said turn quite low, under 300ft. am I doing something wrong or its normal on a sabre 2 loaded @ 1.45?

- Should I even bother with rear riser landing for now? transition time from fronts to rears seem to be quite short...

- At what wing loading it is best to transition to an elliptical canopy? 1.45 or higher?

Thanks !

R



First, and I know this is always said, take a canopy course there they will teach the why the how and when to do your front risers turns, but with that said I can give a quick answer.

Get used to do a 10 second dive, what I did was hold double front for 8 second and on the last 2 I would do my 90, for my wingloading at the time, on a saber 2 170, I burned about 520 ft by the time I started to the time I level off (I know is hard on the saber 2, but at your wingloading is doable as long as you start the turn from full brakes). Do a bunch of drills up high doing this turns that will give you YOUR average altitude lost in the dive.

Build the feel for the transition to rears, first know what is the stall point on rears at full on speed (to a 450 up high and then stab the rears and see how long does it take to stall or get close to stall and never forget that feeling) and then do one at low speed full flight and try to stall or get close to on rears. There are times where I might spend 1/4 second on rears and transition to toggles, just because at that time I didn't have enough power to stay on rears, where other times it felt like I was on rears forever (Yes on a saber 2 170).

For the wing loading and transition to elliptical, well I would leave that up to someone that can see your landings and how you fly your wing, it is always going to be different from person to person. If you can demo a bunch of canopy and stuff, then you are golden and will be able to pick something you feel really comfortable with, but if you have limited access to different wings or is to expensive to get demos and stuff them you are kind of SOL.

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I am not sure anyone can give you advice over the internet besides getting some coaching. In addition to not seeing any of your landings there are too many variables. Technique, body/harness geometry, canopy size, and wing loading will all affect your ideal initiation altitude.

I am not sure what your doing wrong all I can tell you is that I jumped my friends saber 2 150 at 1.46:1 and was able to burn 300' into final doing 90 degree harness turn.
Door! Green! Enjoy

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Determining if your turn is too high or low depends on what type of turn you do. If you're plaining out without having to dig out with then you're ok. But with technique you could probably bring the turn up a bit. Its good to practice your turn from various altitudes so you learn the range of your canopy.

Landing with rear risers should only be considered when you are dialed in. If it becomes your habit to land with your rears and you are still figuring out what is low or not low you may find yourself trying to dig yourself out of a turn with your rears out of muscle memory. Then you are i a high risk of stalling your canopy. Very dangerous situation to be in.

There is no best wing loading to transfer to elliptical. Its all about knowing your are ready for the demands of an elliptical canopy. Talk to people on your DZ you respect for that kind of info.
(insert philosophical quote here)

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I found 380-400ft was about optimal for 90s on my Sabre II loaded at 1.45. Not sure about holding double fronts for 8 secs as I was under the impression that you'd only be accelerating up to maybe 4-5 secs doing straight double fronts, maybe try a slow carving turn after 3 secs, and then speeding the turn up for the second 45 degrees?

Or, better, get coaching from someone qualified.

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Sabre 2 150
WL about 1,4

Full brakes at 430 ft, double fronts for 3-4 sek and then a very slow 90* turn towards the landing area.

270* at 620 ft with a progressive turning speed

I could start both turns about 100/200 ft lower with quicker turns and less double fronts but nothing beats the power generated by a very slow turn.
Rears are quite difficult to use under my sabre because if I touch them just 10 ft too early the canopy levels out and loses all of its power a little bit too high for comfort.
Also if I notice that I am too high I don`t let of my frontriser immediately but pull them both down again until 10 ft above the ground. Might be hard for someone with less strenght in his/her arms than I have though, pullups do wonder btw :P

Sabre 2 are quite difficult to swoop at that sizes but they do teach you to be damn accurate and thats what its all about IMO

stay safe and make sure you are able to say no at any point during the swoop :)
edited for an additional question that just popped up:

According to my viso2 and Protrack I regularly reach about 110 km/h vertical speed unter canopy during my landing approach (270*) and my expert cypres fires at about 126 km/h (78 mi/h) should I consider the speed version since I plan on downsizing to a 135 in a few month? Input on this highly appreciated, I do not jump ws ore plan on doing so ...

-------------------------------------------------------

To absent friends

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I have about the same WL @ 1.42 with my Sabre2 170 and do my turns at about the same height(~300 feet). I find it kinda low, but OK. Never ventured anything larger than a 90 degree turn yet.

I'm gonna get some canopy coaching and to some hop'n'pops to train on my current canopy.

About the eliptical transition, I have the same doubt, about when to transition xD
Some people say to me I should already be jumping a XFire 169 or Stileto 170, others say to first go to a smaller Sabre2 before transtitioning. I have more questions than answers on this one.

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Hopefully the following points might help.

Don't go for a Stiletto. They're trimmed to be responsive on toggles, but they have a short recovery arc. There are better canopies to perform high performance landings on.

Something elliptical for swooping, like a Katana, Crossfire2 etc needs to be loaded at least 1.6 lbs/sq ft to get any real benefit out of it above a semi-elliptical canopy such as a Sabre2 or Safire2. 1.8 is a good place to be on a canopy like that. Higher and you need to be going crossbraced. Lower and you won't get the benefit. Better to work up to a higher loading on a Sabre2 and make the transfer onto the crossfire when you've got more experience.

FWIW, I wingsuit with a Safire2 129 @ 1.6. I get the good openings I need and it still swoops very nicely (270s and using my rears).
--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

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