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Nerra

How aggressively did you down size?

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gunsmokex

I've read a lot of everyone's downsizing and was looking the trends. Most everyone follows the one size rule 190->170->150->135 etc.

I have a concern with a fellow jumper (200 jumps) that he might be getting encouraged to downsize too quickly and will going from a Pilot 170 to a Pilot 135. Granted he's a good canopy Pilot but looking at some of the checklists out there I know there is a lot more to be learned on the current canopy. Or at the least maybe just go down to a 150 first. When exactly is skipping a size wise? I have talked with some of the senior jumpers and they are like "yeah he'll be fine" which he may well be but all I'm seeing is an inflated ego whenever he talks about his new 135 that will here soon.



You said he is a good pilot. Let him make his own desicions. My first canopy was a f111 pd190. Borrowed a sabre 150 for a bit then saved up some money after sitting out because of an internal fixation surgery on my ankle and bought a 107. Borrowed a 120 before I jumped it. A few on a 150 coming off of crutches to be careful. Then later went to wffc with a year under my belt and demo's. Fell in love with Velocity but knew I wasnt ready and slowed down progression for a year.

200 jumps and a good pilot? Have him jump a 150 for a day but it is not a major deal for a competent gifted pilot. (Not saying he is)
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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keithbar

288 manta. To a sabre 150 in the sane weekend. Pretty scarry. And this belongs in the stupid things thread;)



I wouldn't call that a "sane" weekend. :P
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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Heres my progression

AFF - Safire 179
10 - Sabre2 150 (rental)
30 - Spectre 150
400 - Xfire 129
900 - Xfire 109
1300 - Xfire 99
1500 - Velo 90
1900 - JVX 83
2100 - JVX 79

Conservative compared to most people I know in the sport, except that first downsize to the 150. Exit weight about 185.

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Exit weight 180lb:
0-20 - Nav 240
20 - 67 - Sabre 190
68 - 195 - Sabre2 170
196 - 400 - Pilot 150
401 - 650 - Sabre2 135
651 - 950 - CF2 119
951 - 1340 - Vel 103
1341 - 2200 - VK90

A big jump from the CF2 to the velo which took me quite some time to get comfortable on. 60% of jumps hop'n'pops (cessna 206 dz)

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Update:

I'm about 250 lbs out the door. I will agree with most that I probably downsized to fast and don't suggest it to others.

That being said. I have never had anybody say that I scared them or that they felt I was in a bad place. If anything quite the opposite.

1-10 Manta 290 @.87
11-16 Manta 260 @ .97
17-75 PD 230 @ 1.09
76-150 Silhouette 190 @1.32
151-170 Diablo 170 @ 1.47
171-250 Nitro 150 @ 1.67
251-375 Radical 135 @ 1.86
375-2800 Velo 111 @ 2.26
2800-current Velo 96 @ 2.7

Had my first real accident under the 96! Stupid ass mistake to hard impact= broken back in 3 places.....but not seriously. Was able to get up and walk, after being checked by a nurse and EMT that were on site. I was extremely lucky that it wasn't worse. Only another week or two before I'm back in the air.

I have a handful of jumps on various other canopies, the smallest being an Onyx 95.

I also jump large canopies for demos(and for fun). I regularly use either a falcon 265 and a startrek 290, I enjoy flying the large canopies just as much as the small ones. Canopy flight has always come naturally to me, freeflying on the other hand not so much.

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way too fast... sort of.

Canopy control has never been an issue, combining the "nack" for flight with a need to be slightly nervous to get the satisfaction I was looking for lead to a rather quick trip through canopy lane. I'v hurt myself along the way, nothing major... heal got hurt from smashing it on the ground wrong when I tried to run out a spectre 120 loaded at 1.8 (took 6+ months to heal, slid in all landings during healing), ankle got twisted a little when I baseball slid in a velo 96 @ 2.3 and just caught a bad bump in the grass (wore a brace when jumping for the rest of the season).

I fully expect to get tar and feathered if I said what jump numbers I was at when I was jumping those, or even if I said what I jumped now at the numbers I'm at. I keep telling myself I am going to stop and stay where I'm at for a while, but then a good deal comes along on something thats 6 sqft smaller and I think "that's not much more"

Reading threw the previous comments, to see if people had done anything similar, I can tell you... 1 guy was close, but not too close, and he stopped before he hit 3/1. I think that having an advanced level of understanding for aerodynamic principals combined with my personality type and psych has kept me out of any real trouble so far, though many would argue it's ignorance and dumb luck...

I don't encourage anyone to follow what i did, and as an instructor, I preach safety and being cautious, when a student asks how many jumps I have, I generally respond with "hundreds, but never enough" rather than giving them a number. canopy flight remains my passion, and unless it's an instructor jump, I'm deploying rite out the door, no matter what altitude I'm at...y'all can have your freeflying, I want barrel rolls and XRW.

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I wanted to say that it feels damn good to have stand-up landings all day long. I watched some of my friends struggle with no wind landings the other day tumbling in on some pretty nasty landings, I'm glad they are ok but they will be a little sore I'm sure.

It reminds of why I didn't downsize yet. A couple of weeks ago I jumped at Mile Hi in a LOT higher density altitude than I am used to 6000-7000 and also did one jump at a small DZ in the same density altitude into a tighter landing area. Crosswind, no wind, downwind I've had nothing but standup landings and they aren't just standups they are the no, one or two step toe tappers.

That being said I'm at a hell of a dilemma. Its time for new gear and I'm going to have to decide whether to stick with my 1:1 170 or move it down to a 150. I absolutely love my old PISA Hornet and the old bird has done me well. I have nothing to say about the Hornet, I've gotten the pack jobs to super soft sniveling openings get back from long spots and love the flare on her.

Anyways someone give me a reason on why I should downsize? I don't really see the point in it I guess. I'm never going to swoop and for me my best landings are the two, one or no step toe tappers. Going down to a 150 would put me at a 1.16 WL.

I do jump in higher winds at our DZ the max that I'm comfortable with is a steady 20mph wind. Does it honestly help cut the wind that much going from a 1:1 to a 1:1.15?

I'm thinking perhaps I need to talk to the manufacturers and find out what some of the semi-elliptical canopies ideal wing loadings are.

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gunsmokex

I wanted to say that it feels damn good to have stand-up landings all day long. I watched some of my friends struggle with no wind landings the other day tumbling in on some pretty nasty landings, I'm glad they are ok but they will be a little sore I'm sure.

It reminds of why I didn't downsize yet. A couple of weeks ago I jumped at Mile Hi in a LOT higher density altitude than I am used to 6000-7000 and also did one jump at a small DZ in the same density altitude into a tighter landing area. Crosswind, no wind, downwind I've had nothing but standup landings and they aren't just standups they are the no, one or two step toe tappers.

That being said I'm at a hell of a dilemma. Its time for new gear and I'm going to have to decide whether to stick with my 1:1 170 or move it down to a 150. I absolutely love my old PISA Hornet and the old bird has done me well. I have nothing to say about the Hornet, I've gotten the pack jobs to super soft sniveling openings get back from long spots and love the flare on her.

Anyways someone give me a reason on why I should downsize? I don't really see the point in it I guess.



You don't see the point of downsizing and you are happy with your current canopy -- where is the dilemma?

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I know someone who's downsize went. 500+ on a falcon 300, 100 or so on a sabre 190, a handful on a crossfire 2 169. 220. To 230 lb guy. :S. :o
i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .


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My progression from memory:
0-50 Student canopies from 240 to 200.
50-300: Safire2 149 WL 1.2
300-600 Safire2 129
600-800 Crossifre2 109 WL 1.5-1.7
800-950 Katana 97 WL 1.9-2.0
950 - now (995): Velo 84 WL 2.2-2.4

Give or take. Numbers are approximate. I think, except for the idea of starting on a 150, which wasn't objectively a smart one, after that is neither fast neither slow.
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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Mine went:
0-20 Nav 240-200
20-27 Sabre 190
27-100 Storm 170 @.94
100-220ish Pilot 150 @ 1.1
220-315 Safire 3 139 @1.2
A couple jumps on a Siletto 135 (borrowed)
315-320 Sabre 2 120 (Borrowed)
320+ Crossfire 3 119 @1.5

A little quick I suppose, but, I think I'm done for awhile, I want to get 270s dialed (havent even started yet) before I go to anything smaller.

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chips26

Mine went:
0-20 Nav 240-200
20-27 Sabre 190
27-100 Storm 170 @.94
100-220ish Pilot 150 @ 1.1
220-315 Safire 3 139 @1.2
A couple jumps on a Siletto 135 (borrowed)
315-320 Sabre 2 120 (Borrowed)
320+ Crossfire 3 119 @1.5

A little quick I suppose, but, I think I'm done for awhile, I want to get 270s dialed (havent even started yet) before I go to anything smaller.



You do 270's on a crossfire 3 at under 400 jumps?

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timrf79

***Mine went:
0-20 Nav 240-200
20-27 Sabre 190
27-100 Storm 170 @.94
100-220ish Pilot 150 @ 1.1
220-315 Safire 3 139 @1.2
A couple jumps on a Siletto 135 (borrowed)
315-320 Sabre 2 120 (Borrowed)
320+ Crossfire 3 119 @1.5

A little quick I suppose, but, I think I'm done for awhile, I want to get 270s dialed (havent even started yet) before I go to anything smaller.



You do 270's on a crossfire 3 at under 400 jumps?

No I don't. 90s only right now. I said, I'd move to a smaller canopy when I mastered 270s on it. Long road out right now.

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my two pence -

0 - 23 SkyMaster 260 0.8
24 - 50 Silhouette 260 0.8
51 - 60 Silhouette 230 0.9
61 - 74 Silhouette 210 0.95
75 - 96 Silhouette 190 0.98
96 - 98 Safire2 169 1.12

and this is now my own kit so i'll be flying the 169 for a good while, at least this year and probably the next too.

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chips26

******Mine went:
...
320+ Crossfire 3 119 @1.5

A little quick I suppose, but, I think I'm done for awhile, I want to get 270s dialed (havent even started yet) before I go to anything smaller.



You do 270's on a crossfire 3 at under 400 jumps?

No I don't. 90s only right now. I said, I'd move to a smaller canopy when I mastered 270s on it. Long road out right now.
I assume you have a dedicated swoop coach you are working with?

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Jumps | Canopy | Wing Loading
0-21 | Student 260-240 | 0.85
22-45 | Safire2 189-149 | 1.05
46-90 | Spectre 170 | 1.05
91-134 | ZP.Exe 150 | 1.15
135-240 | Sabre2 135 | 1.35
241-300 | Stiletto 120 | 1.5
301-590 | Crossfire2 104 | 1.65
591-850 | Katana 97 | 1.85
850+ | Comp Velocity 84 | 2.15

The biggest and scariest jump by far was between the Crossfire and Katana, 7sq/ft but a completely different beast the Katana is much more like my Comp Velo now than anything else.

Started induced speed landings at around 150 jumps (straight in's then onto 90's). First 270 was on the Crossfire at around 340 jumps. Since then most landings where the airspace is clear have been 270s.

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Another newbie chiming in!

Jumps 1-16 were either on a 210 loaded at .59 or a 190 loaded at .68. I quite enjoyed the 15 minute long canopy rides, though I'm sure my AFF instructors were somewhat annoyed with having to wait around for an extra 10+minutes for me to finally land.

Jump 17 I started jumping my own gear - a Pulse 150. I was fully intending/expecting to wait to jump my 150 after jumping a friend's 170 for a bit (the DZ's rental 170s were too big for me) - I even had the 170 in my possession when I went to manifest and they brought my freshly packed and inspected rig down. Both of the riggers - one of whom was also my instructor, the other the DZ manager - were baffled that I was going to jump the 170. He had me hop on the scale with the gear on, made a bit of a funny face, then handed me a weight belt (I'd been using one since Cat C) and just kind of shook his head. They did say I didn't have to jump the 150 is I wasn't comfortable, but fuck it, the rig felt so perfect on I just had to.

The first couple of jumps were sans weight belt (loaded at .8) then slowly added lead until I was loading it at about .85. In a stroke of excellent timing, jumps 18-23 were a canopy course and made me feel so much more comfortable with my canopy. However, as the heat and humidity picked up I started to struggle with the Pulse. It was just too much glide for me and that's without even catching a thermal and just... Gliding forever. Front riser input was virtually impossible without flaring nearly all the way.

Jump 76 I downsized to a triathlon 135 loaded at .95 and it has been an absolute game changer for me. I feel as though I'm actually a part of the parachute, not just dangling beneath it while it mulls over whether or not it wants heed the input I give it. Of course it's also nice that I can land exactly where I want to, am able to get on my front risers, and just generally feel like I'm actually the one in control now. I am very happy on the 135 and don't plan on downsizing again anytime soon.

In no way am I advocating a 40sqft downsize at 17 jumps. Or another downsize under 100 jumps. YMMV. Talk to your riggers and instructors and heed their advice. The small person struggle is real.

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Until about jump 70 many different canopies renting (i don't remember jump numbers per canopy, but not that many), while I had a 120 Kg exit weigth:

Navigator 280, 260, 240, 220
Silhouete 210, 190
Pulse 210, 190

After that (my Main canopies):
Sabre1 190, about 80 jumps @120 Kg Exit Weigth
Sabre2 170, about 450 jumps @120 Kg Exit Weigth
Crossfire 139, about 400 jumps @120 Kg Exit Weigth, aftar that I lost about 22 Kg and did another 200 jumps
JVX-119, about 200 jumps @98 Kg Exit Weigth
About to order a JVX 96 (i'm putting another 100-150 jumps on my 119 until it's ready)

Did several jumps on other canopies too (but usualy 1-4 jumps max, borrowing):
Optimum 176 (mounting as a main parachute)
Katana 150
Katana 135
Stileto 135
Zulu 132
Velocity 103
Velocity 96
JFX 99

I've always been a decent canopy pilot, did a lot of coaching and started doing HP landings on my 170 early on. But I don't recomend my downsizing, especialy the one frome the Sabre2 170 (WL 1,4ish) to a Crossfire2 139 (WL 1,8ish).

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timrf79

*********Mine went:
...
320+ Crossfire 3 119 @1.5

A little quick I suppose, but, I think I'm done for awhile, I want to get 270s dialed (havent even started yet) before I go to anything smaller.



You do 270's on a crossfire 3 at under 400 jumps?

No I don't. 90s only right now. I said, I'd move to a smaller canopy when I mastered 270s on it. Long road out right now.
I assume you have a dedicated swoop coach you are working with?

I do at my local DZ. Also pick alot of other brains wherever I go.

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Update

1-10 270 0.90

10-40 250 0.98

then came the "mixed" period

40-60 mostly 230 with a couple of jumps on 210

60-75 mostly 210 Volt with few 250-230 canopy jumps in between anything from a Navigator 220, 230 zp.exe, atair dragon ...

75- 87 mostly Volt 185 with a couple of jumps on Volt 210 in between

Bought my own rig

88-150 Volt 185 just bellow 1.3 wl, had downwind, crosswind landing, started to practice 90° final front riser approaches, landed in a turn etc.

1 test jump on a Volt 170 during the season and loved it even more. My transition next year.

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