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Nerra

How aggressively did you down size?

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Everyone is tired of seeing others smash themselves after a rapid downsize and it makes them "quick on the draw" so to speak

everyone learns at a different rate and his downsize isn't crazy as some I have seen.

I was working at Ralph Hatly's dz at 1300 jumps and quite content with my stiletto 120 when he tossed the 85 fx at me and said to test it out - I still remember my thought process at the time.... "jesus this is a big change and different platform... am I ready for this? Hey Ralph, if this scares me I am chopping the fucker just so ya know! :D

as it was I found I loved it and well... it took me 1300 jumps to be ready for it. others can progress faster but I just pray they are being honest with their abilities and running the show with their brains and not their balls.



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What I am trying to do is counter (with facts) the knee-jerk reaction that this is a massive jump in performance and therefore unsafe in any situation.


They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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D22369

I just pray they are being honest with their abilities and running the show with their brains and not their balls.

I don't think anybody actually thinks like that. It can be very difficult to judge your own skill level sometimes. Many times I have genuinely thought I am ready for something and not been.

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totally agree, it can be quite difficult to actually judge your own, I was speaking more of the people that look at others and think " well.... they are doing it - why shouldn't I?" -then run out and buy a very hot canopy/bike/car without considering the time the other person worked on their skillset - we read about those people too often [:/]
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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Aff on 260
until jump 34* different rentals down to 200
Spectre 170 34-150
Sabre 2 150 150-275
Katana 135 275-?
200+ out the door

300 jumps+ within a year and the new season has just started, yay =D
2 Canopy Courses

Some extremely experienced canopy pilots supervising my canopy progress during the last 150 jumps, briefing and debriefing with me thoroughly every aspect
several dedicated highpulls and hopnpops

Downsize to Katana was not suggested by them but regarding my canopy flight nobody was against it.
Could land dead center after my AFF under all reasonable jumping conditions, have been speeding up my landings since jump 70 (double fronts, later 90*)

not conservative at all, not recommended for anybody else (also not for me when I think about it in one of my few reasonable moments)

Still hope I can get away with it :)
-------------------------------------------------------

To absent friends

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I'm actually quite happy that my post started a discussion where people were looking at things from more than one perspective.

To all of you whose opinion is that my choice of canopy is bad or downright stupid - I understand you. In my case I don't agree with you, but I get your point. When a guy you don't know posts a canopy progression history like mine, the only things you can take into account is statistics and your own experiences and not if this guy actually is able to fly the thing.

I think we can all agree that the best advice you can give when it comes to flying your canopy is 'get coaching'. Coaching was exactly what I did get and on top of that I have never hesitated to ask a skilled canopy pilot to look at my landings whenever I had the chance.

I'm not going to say "don't do like I do" because that would be downright stupid. But if you feel confident that you can do as I have done without getting hurt, do yourself the favour of getting coaching and have as many qualified eyes as possible to look at your flying and of course be open to their opinion.

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I am a bit of a lightweight at 57kg, about 150lbs out the door.
My progression so far:

1-40: 235 down to a 185 student canopy.
40-90: Sabre 170 at 0.9
90-140: Silhouette/Sabre/Sabre2 150 at 1.0
140-350: Sabre/Sabre2 135 at 1.1
350-650: Sabre2 120 at 1.25
650- now: Crossfire2 109 at a bit less than 1.4

According to the Dutch canopy rules my downsizing is (way) too aggressive, which I don't agree with. This is partially because those rules restrict mostly on sizes and not so much on wingload, it is also not that common here to do more than 200 jumps a year (as I do).
"So I jump out, look up, and think 'Oh SHIT!...

It's PINK!!!'"
- army guy after his first staticline jump

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220-225 out the door (unleaded).

AFF: Falcon 265
11-37: PD 210
38-575: Sabre 150's
576-850-ish: Stiletto 135 (and the Sabre 150's)
850-1040: Stiletto 120 and 135
1040-1100: Demo'ed FX 104 and FX 99 a number of times, but mostly stuck to the Stiletto 120. Ordered an FX 94
1100-1700: Mostly FX 94, mixed with the Stiletto 120
1700-1800: Transitioned from the FX to a VX 86
1800-... everything from a VX 68 to a VX 99, JVX's, JFX 126, XAOS's, and the occasional Velo.

Each time I transitioned to a smaller x-brace, I weighted up over a number of jumps to what my new wingloading would be. Always felt comfortable under the new wing.

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1-3: Skymaster 260 (0.67)
4-15: Skymaster 240 (0.73)
16-29: Skymaster 230 (0.76)
30-35: Safire 209 (0.86)
36-45: Safire 189 (0.96)
45-93: Spectre 170 (1.08)
94-134: Zp.exe 155 (1.18)
135-350: Sabre2 135 (1.33)
351-399: Stiletto 120 (1.47)
400-Now: Crossfire2 104 (1.70)

I've been doing induced speed landings since ~jump 150. Started with 90s, then 180s and now working on my 270s.
It's been conservative at times, and less so at others, but I'm currently happy and confident in what I fly.

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I'm about 240 out the door ish.

Jumps 1-40 Navigator 260 @ .92
Jumps 41-410. Sabre II 210 @ 1.14
Jumps 411-656 Sabre II 170 @ 1.41

I'm sure I can handle a Sabre II 150 at this point, but I'm in no rush. I do some front riser 90's to final, but to be honest, I'm pretty fucking awesome and if I start swooping most people will melt under my gnarlyness.

Also I want to be a good example to the up and comers that it's ok not to race down as some are already doing so.

I will probably end up swooping at some point in the future, because I love canopy flight so godamn much, but I'll start after I do the flight 1 200 series courses and probably wait til I'm no longer a triple digit midget. :ph34r:

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I'm about 250 lbs out the door. I will agree with most that I probably downsized to fast and don't suggest it to others.

That being said. I have never had anybody say that I scared them or that they felt I was in a bad place. If anything quite the opposite.

1-10 Manta 290 @.87
11-16 Manta 260 @ .97
17-75 PD 230 @ 1.09
76-150 Silhouette 190 @1.32
151-170 Diablo 170 @ 1.47
171-250 Nitro 150 @ 1.67
251-375 Radical 135 @ 1.86
375-current Velo 111 @ 2.26

I have a handful of jumps on various other canopies, the smallest being an Onyx 95.

I also jump large canopies for demos(and for fun). I regularly use either a falcon 265 and a startrek 290, I enjoy flying the large canopies just as much as the small ones. Canopy flight has always come naturally to me, freeflying on the other hand not so much.

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Exit weight has been as high as 285 and is currently at a low of around 245-250 or so.

1-44: Raven IV, 0.95 or so w/l at the time.

45-115: Fusion 210, 1.27 w/l at the time. Dropping 70sqft, adding two cells, changing materials and adding taper on one jump wasn't wise, but I got away with it.

116 onward: Fusion 190, 1.45 w/l at the time of downsize.

About a 1.3 or a bit under these days courtesy of losing rather a lot of weight, and since it's been about 8 years with this canopy I'm getting a bit bored of it… Prolly jump over to a Nitron 170 next.
cavete terrae.

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#1-42 on a Manta 288
#43-53 on a Falcon 215
#54-97 on a Navigator 240
#98-101 on a Sabre1 210
#102-129 on a Sabre1 190
#130-148 on a spectre 190
#149-453 on a Storm 190

After that it gets a little confusing because I switch canopies a lot. I still jump the Storm when not doing CReW and have 360 jumps on it.
Between #454-702 I made 98 jumps on a Lightning 160
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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I want to be an old and not too broken skydiver - going conservative and a larger canopy is great for wingsuting.

Jumps Load Size
11 1 - 11 0.77 240
17 12 - 28 0.84 220
14 29 - 42 0.88 210
15 43 - 57 0.93 200
45 58 - 102 0.97 190
52 103 - 154 1.09 170
8 155 - 162 1.16 160
29 163 - 191 1.23 150
The Power of the Dark Side

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Student Canopy 270ft 3 jumps
Aerodyne Solo 250ft 25 jumps

a very old F-111 canopy DOM in 1988,
Marvrick 200ft 4 jumps

Sports Canopy 230ft 5 jumps
Aerodyne Polit 210ft 5 jumps
190ft 6 jumps
170ft 1 jumps
Sabre 1 150ft 1 jumps


BASE canopy TrollDW 225ft 2 jumps


Result: 270ft to 150ft in 50 jumps
I want a Bridman GTi...... Soo bad...

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Same here..... Almost 700 jumps and never had higher wing load then 1.3. Also technically jumping a canopy size not yet allowed by Dutch rules for my experience :S. Well at least I don't have the desire yet to go super fast... Haha

230 to 170 from student to 65 jumps
65-180 jumps: Spectre 150 @ ~ 0.95-1
180-375 jumps: Sabre 2 135 @ ~ 1.05
375-550 jumps: Safire 2 119 @ ~ 1.2
550 + jumps: Crossfire 2 109 @ ~ 1.3
good girls go to heaven, bad girls go everywhere

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suuz83

Same here..... Almost 700 jumps and never had higher wing load then 1.3. Also technically jumping a canopy size not yet allowed by Dutch rules for my experience :S. Well at least I don't have the desire yet to go super fast... Haha



Sounds to me you just asked and got dispensation for "technically jumping a canopy size not yet allowed by Dutch rules for your experience :S".

It's hard to draft rules which can take into account every individual jumper and still be safe, enforcable and readable. The talented people and the very light people seem held back at first glance.

But that's where the dispensations come in. Any jumper can apply to the KNVvL with a sound motivation of why they want to jump a smaller wing. If their request has merit, they'll get such dispensation.

This may sound harsh, but the tone I read in your post is something I hear more and more often, also on the DZs and I'm fed up with it. Let me ask a rhetorical question: What's the obsession with WL, especially for non-swoopers?

No need to act all gung ho and tough-attitude about how restrictive those bothersome dutch rules are. There is room for interpretation, and you know it.

Or, being a lighter and current and talented jumper, you should know it.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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Someone blew my mind last weekend...
850 jumps doing his thirth jump on a velo 89, he jumps about 10 to 15 jumps a month ...if.

Doing 180 on landings already....

I downsized pretty fast, but i kept it pretty conservative with my learning curve, and I think there might lie the key to avoid the intentional turns that end up in accidents.
After reading DZ.com for over 5-6 years a lot of the accidents are by people in between the 40-120 jumps on a new wing doing 180s or more. Where I started to feel comfortable with my canopy (JVX 94 WL at 2.6) landing it even at a 19 mph downwind at about 100 jumps with a 90, but somehow still doing drill for 180 up high and getting ready to use them for actual landings (200+ on the wing now).

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Pablo.Moreno

Someone blew my mind last weekend...
850 jumps doing his thirth jump on a velo 89, he jumps about 10 to 15 jumps a month ...if.

Doing 180 on landings already....



First where did he find a 89 velo?;)

Second is he getting coaching, doing hop n pops, wingloading it correctly? Are his 180's part of a progression to a bigger turn?
If so then good on him.
If not, say something to the dzo or s&ta.

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Pablo.Moreno

Someone blew my mind last weekend...
850 jumps doing his thirth jump on a velo 89, he jumps about 10 to 15 jumps a month ...if.

Doing 180 on landings already....



TBH that doesn't seem all that extreme to me.

If he just downsized one size and was competent at 180 or larger turns before then I don't see much of an issue purely based on the info you gave.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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DocPop

***Someone blew my mind last weekend...
850 jumps doing his thirth jump on a velo 89, he jumps about 10 to 15 jumps a month ...if.

Doing 180 on landings already....



TBH that doesn't seem all that extreme to me.

If he just downsized one size and was competent at 180 or larger turns before then I don't see much of an issue purely based on the info you gave.

That doesnt seem to extreme to me either. Not like being on a sub 100 canopy at a 2.6 w/l and trying to learn 180's on it with only 500 jumps(if your profile is correct). Also you state you have 200 jumps on it. So youve been jumping a sub100 crossedbraced @2.6 w/l since 300 jumps and you're worried about someone else? Ha, id be more worried about you than the other guy.

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ridebmxbikes

******Someone blew my mind last weekend...
850 jumps doing his thirth jump on a velo 89, he jumps about 10 to 15 jumps a month ...if.

Doing 180 on landings already....



TBH that doesn't seem all that extreme to me.

If he just downsized one size and was competent at 180 or larger turns before then I don't see much of an issue purely based on the info you gave.

That doesnt seem to extreme to me either. Not like being on a sub 100 canopy at a 2.6 w/l and trying to learn 180's on it with only 500 jumps(if your profile is correct). Also you state you have 200 jumps on it. So youve been jumping a sub100 crossedbraced @2.6 w/l since 300 jumps and you're worried about someone else? Ha, id be more worried about you than the other guy.

Assuming the above assumptions are correct. I hope this is at a DZ that flies a MoGas cessna. I don't really care what someone dose to themselves. It's how they deal with traffic that concer
Quote

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ns me. BTW I think we all saw a good 180 video recently. (Kicking back and throwing a bag of popcorn in the microwave)
Door! Green! Enjoy

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ridebmxbikes

******Someone blew my mind last weekend...
850 jumps doing his thirth jump on a velo 89, he jumps about 10 to 15 jumps a month ...if.

Doing 180 on landings already....



TBH that doesn't seem all that extreme to me.

If he just downsized one size and was competent at 180 or larger turns before then I don't see much of an issue purely based on the info you gave.

That doesnt seem to extreme to me either. Not like being on a sub 100 canopy at a 2.6 w/l and trying to learn 180's on it with only 500 jumps(if your profile is correct). Also you state you have 200 jumps on it. So youve been jumping a sub100 crossedbraced @2.6 w/l since 300 jumps and you're worried about someone else? Ha, id be more worried about you than the other guy.

I should update my profile I have 1300 jumps with the last 200 on the JVX, taken two canopy courses and get coached on almost every jump (video on almost all my jumps). Also, been doing canopy piloting since jump 193 (took first canopy course).

If I was coaching someone on doing 180 with only three jumps on that canopy and 850 jumps, I would consider that being pretty reckless when you don't even have your average or have a consistency on your turns for that canopy, I don't think even the most experience pilots would say after three jumps they have a canopy dialed in.

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Pablo.Moreno

I don't think even the most experience pilots would say after three jumps they have a canopy dialed in.



I would agree, but that's not the same as saying you can't do conservative HP landings if you have been doing them previously. And before I get jumped on for that; yes, there are more and less conservative HP landings.

IMO if you're jumping a cross-brace, you should not have to go back to straight-in landings if you downsize. Of course, there is nothing wrong with doing it, and everyone should be able to land straight-in, but I don't think it's the same as when a student downsizes.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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DocPop

*** I don't think even the most experience pilots would say after three jumps they have a canopy dialed in.



I would agree, but that's not the same as saying you can't do conservative HP landings if you have been doing them previously. And before I get jumped on for that; yes, there are more and less conservative HP landings.

IMO if you're jumping a cross-brace, you should not have to go back to straight-in landings if you downsize. Of course, there is nothing wrong with doing it, and everyone should be able to land straight-in, but I don't think it's the same as when a student downsizes.

+1 doc. There definitely is a difference between throwing an easy turn for shits and giggles and ripping a turn looking to get everything the canopy is worth.

Im pretty decent at 270's and just started 450's today. Being on my katana 107 and having flown a velo 103 a couple of times. If i jumped on a velo 96- velo 90 id probably throw a medium powered 270 on it first jump.

My progression usually followed learn something, downsize, get back to where i was, dial it in, learn something new and get decent on it, downsize again. Thats been my approach and its been working for me( so far anyways).

As far a students go, its the same. Learn to flare, downsize, get better at flaring for stand ups and get more accurate, downsize.

The only thing i dont agree with is learning bigger turns with a really high loading on a small as canopy. There's too many mistakes to be made with bigger turns and the bigger turns are a whole different animal compared to 90's. If it works for someone though then more power to them. We all have different paths to our progression, but the ultimate goal is to land to swoop again.

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As far a students go, its the same. Learn to flare, downsize, get better at flaring for stand ups and get more accurate, downsize.



Using the idea that learning to flare your canopy as being the metric as when to downsize would be the same as learning to stop your car before going to a faster car.

Wrong concept. I was jumping a canopy at 1.17 at 38 jumps and standing them up. I still had lots to learn under that canopy. Should I have downsized to a smaller canopy because my jumpsuit stayed clean.

Learn how to fly your canopy before downsizing is the test to use. A stand up landing is not a good measure of skills learned.
50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

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