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Nerra

How aggressively did you down size?

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craddock

*********Jump# 4, 215 something
Jumps #5-29, 175 something
Jumps 30-150, sabre 135 @ 1.06
Jumps 150-300, sabre 120 @ 1.3
Jumps 300-400, katana 120 @1.3
Jumps 400-till, katana 107 @1.5

Ive always been the conservative type



Honestly not trying to be an ass: Is a 1.5 wing loading on a Katana at 400 jumps really what people are considering conservative these days? While it certainly isn't the most aggressive downsizing I've ever seen, I wouldn't call it conservative by any stretch.


You are right in my opinion... even the move before it, wingloading is ok but canopy choice is most definitely not!

I think some people missed a bit of sarcasm about his downsizing.

Haha, i was being a little sarcastic, but after posting right after popdoc's i look like a good boy. Haha

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Navigator 210 20 Jumps
Sabre 2 190 25 Jumps
Sabre 2 170 10 Jumps
Sabre 1 150 45 Jumps
Stiletto 150 30 Jumps
Katana 135 200+ (Present) 1.4WL
"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

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Just to balance this out a little

170 pounds out the door

Jump# - canopy - wl
1 - manta 288 - 0.59
40 - safire 209 - 0.81
50 - safire 189 - 0.90
70 - sabre 170 - 1.00
400 - safire 2 149 - 1.14
550 - sabre 135 - 1.26

i've always felt very confident under my wing and that i could downsize far quicker and get away with it but at the same time i understand that people like brian germain probably know a lot of things i don't and respected the effort they make to keep us safe (also known as stifling our mad skillz) by adhering to his guidelines
http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

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Navigator 300 1 jump
Navigator 280 2 jump
Navigator 260 22 jumps
Sabre2 230 30 jumps
Sabre2 210 30 jumps
Sabre2 190 120 jumps started playing with straight in fronts
Sabre2 170 200 jumps started 90's
Sabre2 150 100 jumps
Sabre2 135 500 jumps after over 200 jumps doing 90's on the 135, started 270s with some coaching.
Katana 120 100 jumps
Velocity 103 500 jumps and still going.
This was over a 4 year period and most of the jumps where hop n pops or high pulls dedicated to canopy drills or "skills"

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mx19

Maybe but we all know sarcasm doesn't come across as well in text, also there are unfortunately more and more people out there that think this is a conservative progression...



Yeah, I missed the sarcasm, but my point still stands. There are LOTS of folks who think a 1.5 on an elliptical at somewhat low jump numbers isn't that big of a deal these days.
-Lambert-

"It's better to be looked over than overlooked."

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Although I agree with you on following advice from the veterans and coaches in the sport and not rushing into the next thing as soon as you hit the numbers, BG's downsizing guide does say fully elliptical canopies require 300 jumps (with 100 on the same size/wl non-FEC), so for 170 lbs, by say jump 320, you could already be on a Katana 135, and that's not even pushing his lower limit.

(Yes, I realize for your weight that's not a good WL for that canopy, but the point is that it's not that conservative)

By the BAS Downsizing Chart, assuming practice, currency, proficiency and coaching, you could be at a 1.5 by 360/370 jumps, and that's the American system. The DFV recommendations are just 200 jumps for a 1.5wl.

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airbigdaddy

***Jump# 4, 215 something
Jumps #5-29, 175 something
Jumps 30-150, sabre 135 @ 1.06
Jumps 150-300, sabre 120 @ 1.3
Jumps 300-400, katana 120 @1.3
Jumps 400-till, katana 107 @1.5

Ive always been the conservative type



Honestly not trying to be an ass: Is a 1.5 wing loading on a Katana at 400 jumps really what people are considering conservative these days? While it certainly isn't the most aggressive downsizing I've ever seen, I wouldn't call it conservative by any stretch.

I think it's just another sign of the times of what people's definitions of what "conservative" and "aggressive" are.


Besides missing the sarcasm I think your observation still stands. What I would say is that this mentality isn't exclusive to skydiving. If you look at any action sport now, people are doing in year one what others took 10 years to do initially. For example back flipping a motorcycle used to be a huuuuuuge deal and only done by a very select few. Now it's a warm up stunt for freestyle riders. Another example is snowboarding and the size of the jumps that regular people and kids are doing very early on.

It's a combination of more advanced equipment, access to better coaching and information and then the 4 minute mile phenomenon.

What I do find very different in Skydiving compared to other action sports is how people are very discouraging of anyone trying to push things a little and are just waiting for the opportunity to say "I told you so".

Again, using snowboarding as an example, if you tell your buddies that you're feeling ready to step up, they will normally encourage you and then if you happen to mess up and break your arm or leg, they say, "props for going for it", not "I told you so".

And before someone chimes in with "this is skydiving, you could die", we're talking about canopy control. Yes there is a chance you could die trying to land a canopy but no more than other action sports.

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Nerra


And before someone chimes in with "this is skydiving, you could die", we're talking about canopy control. Yes there is a chance you could die trying to land a canopy but no more than other action sports.



whoa! hold on now! you were going great till that last little part! the risks with downsizing rapidly and getting into high performance landing are greatly increasing your chance for dying compared to trying a new trick on a snowboard or hitting a new ramp. i rode bmx(street and skateparks) for 14 years. never have i experienced a jump as high or speeds as great as one of my hp landings. you won't get hurt as often skydiving as some of the other extreme sports but you can't afford even 1% of the mistakes skydiving as compared to other sports.

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ridebmxbikes

***
And before someone chimes in with "this is skydiving, you could die", we're talking about canopy control. Yes there is a chance you could die trying to land a canopy but no more than other action sports.



whoa! hold on now! you were going great till that last little part! the risks with downsizing rapidly and getting into high performance landing are greatly increasing your chance for dying compared to trying a new trick on a snowboard or hitting a new ramp. i rode bmx(street and skateparks) for 14 years. never have i experienced a jump as high or speeds as great as one of my hp landings. you won't get hurt as often skydiving as some of the other extreme sports but you can't afford even 1% of the mistakes skydiving as compared to other sports.

Related to your 1%, something I have been working on my head for a few months is the margin of safety under a parachute, to keep it short here are both extremes

(-----------------------------------)
Margin of safety for a jumper 100 jumps on a saber2 190 WL at 1.0 not doing any type of HP landings.
(-----------------------------)
Margin of safety for same jumper hung over, sleep deprived and tired.

(-----------)
Margin of safety for a 1000+ jumper on a High performance X-braced canopy doing HP landings and doing about 300 jumps a year (Not sure what it would be for competitors in relation to swoopers that don't compete).
(----)
Margin of safety for the same jumper hung over, sleep deprived and tired.

So, on relation to the 1%, you can fix your mistakes on skydiving and keep a high margin of safety, but that will decreases hugely by the mental/physical conditions of the jumper.

PS: I have been working on a chart to explain that idea a little bit better.

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0-40: Student gear
40-200: Spectre 190
200-400: Sabre2 150
400-800: Sabre2 135
800-1200: Vengeance 120
1200-2000:
JFX91, (+- 50)
Velo 90, (+- 50)
Velo 84, (+- 50)
Comp Velo 79 (a few)
CF Storm 97 (+100)
Spectre 120 (lots)
+2000: Spectre 120 (wingsuiting)

The speed of downsizing has gone up and down.. The 190 to 150 jump was stupid to make (at least for me), but I survived it, so that is good.. Had a few quite interesting landings, but since I followed the rules I didnt see a problem with it at the time..

Between jump 1200 and 2000 around 400 of the jumps are tandems, so that counts down a bit on jumps in the smaller canopies..
The progression in those was fast.. Sorta too fast, but I was jumping fulltime at that moment, so felt current and safe to do so..
If everything seems under control.. You're just not going fast enough..!

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MikeBIBOM

The DFV recommendations are just 200 jumps for a 1.5wl.



Okay, I need to clarify something about this, but I'm past the 6 hour post editing window. My German is not top-notch and a friend of mine clarified this for me.

The DFV does not recommend going to a 1.5wl at 200 jumps, and there have been a few recent injuries in Germany from people overloading their canopies too soon.

The German DFV downsizing chart says the WL limit up to 200 jumps is 1.3, and up to 600 jumps is 1.5. It doesn't leave out the requirement to build up to that WL, and in fact the same chart recommends being conservative when downsizing. The DFV recommendations are actually a lot closer to Brian Germaine's chart.

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No, the guidelines are not that conservative, and yet many people still find them too restrictive. For me, I had to factor in British weather induced currency levels and decided to stay in the middle of the range, away from the 'do not exceed' end of the scale.
Still injury free and i can count on one hand the landings i'd prefer to have gone unwitnessed

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Off student status it went something like this:

Sabre 2, Spectre, PD 9-cell - 210 (a little under 1:1, didn't like the light loading at all plus they were all rentals and lol F111)
Sabre 2, Spectre, Silhouette 190 (only the Sabre 2 was a keeper IMO, still getting molested by light breezes)
Safire 1 189 (first canopy I owned, it was more like a 175 due to measuring variations, lots of jumps on this)
Stiletto 150 (didn't like it at the time, only a handful)
Nitron 170 (probably around 1.2 loading, tons of jumps, loved it!)
Nitron, Nitro, Jedei 150 (tried some other stuff, went back to Nitron, lost weight, lots of jumps)
Pulse 170 (got recurrent, dozens of jumps, didn't really like it but I can see how some people would love it)
Nitron 150 (back to work!)
Nitron 135 (still newish, love it)

I probably jumped some other stuff that I don't remember at boogies and such but based on what I read here I should order a Velo 96 immediately! :D
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

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I missed where anyone suggested they made that kind of jump!? But I agree a thread like this is not necessarily good for those that need encouragement not to downsize
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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ridebmxbikes

***
And before someone chimes in with "this is skydiving, you could die", we're talking about canopy control. Yes there is a chance you could die trying to land a canopy but no more than other action sports.



whoa! hold on now! you were going great till that last little part! the risks with downsizing rapidly and getting into high performance landing are greatly increasing your chance for dying compared to trying a new trick on a snowboard or hitting a new ramp. i rode bmx(street and skateparks) for 14 years. never have i experienced a jump as high or speeds as great as one of my hp landings. you won't get hurt as often skydiving as some of the other extreme sports but you can't afford even 1% of the mistakes skydiving as compared to other sports.

We're talking downsizing here, not HP landings. In my mind they are very different things. Someone may choose to down size to get a little more performance and a slightly faster landing, that's different to pilot induced performance i.e swooping.


And for arguments sake, here is the BMX equivalent of swooping :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aSpdpOdPeg

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AFF on NAV240 to NAV220
#15-#25: NAV200 (for some reason, some of my worst landings)
#25-#40: whatever was available from NAV260 to NAV200.
#40-#45: Pilot 188
#45-Now (about #110): Safire 2 149, WL 1.2 "clean" (without lead)

Last couple of jumps I am starting to progressively throw lead on (+5lbs now, probably go to +10lbs soon), not to increase the WL, which I am happy with, I know it's already on the "risky" side of the curve and I'd like to stay there for a couple hundreds more jumps; but unfortunately increasing it is a side effect I have to deal with if I want to RW comfortably, a few experienced instructors who are my friends offered to give me canopy coaching and of course I am taking this as seriously as I can.
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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Nerra

******
And before someone chimes in with "this is skydiving, you could die", we're talking about canopy control. Yes there is a chance you could die trying to land a canopy but no more than other action sports.



whoa! hold on now! you were going great till that last little part! the risks with downsizing rapidly and getting into high performance landing are greatly increasing your chance for dying compared to trying a new trick on a snowboard or hitting a new ramp. i rode bmx(street and skateparks) for 14 years. never have i experienced a jump as high or speeds as great as one of my hp landings. you won't get hurt as often skydiving as some of the other extreme sports but you can't afford even 1% of the mistakes skydiving as compared to other sports.

We're talking downsizing here, not HP landings. In my mind they are very different things. Someone may choose to down size to get a little more performance and a slightly faster landing, that's different to pilot induced performance i.e swooping.


And for arguments sake, here is the BMX equivalent of swooping :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aSpdpOdPeg

The more you downsize the more hp everything becomes! Yhe smaller you go the more you have to fly your parachute to the ground. Eventually you will have a hp approach weather you want it or not. Someone cuts you off, bad/unplanned landing pattern. You are gonna have to deal with the unperfect landing someday.

Swooping isnt guessing you are at the perfect altitude when you start your turn. I start my turns from all kinds of different altitudes. Its about flying your canopy all the way to the ground and not just "i wont make any heavy turns under 2000". Flying your canopy and "swooping" are one in the same. A little downsize is whatever, you start getting aggressive with it, everything becomes hp, from openings, malfunctions, turbulence, and yes, landings too!

Thanks for the video! Brought back a lot of good memories! But ill yell you this, ive built a ton of dirt jumps using refrigerators to take the edge off digging, ive over shot those landings, nose bombed and came down straight on top of my head and walked away with nothing more then a headache(no helmet). The only carnage ive seen from bmx in 14 years only compares to the people ive seen flying big a$$ student canopies flying straight in. Ive also broke my bike frame the same way as in the video too!

Also, i noticed you didnt post your progression, how long in the sport?

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as best as I can recall offhand -

1-30 Raven IV
30-50 Raven III
50-100 Raven II
100-300 Arial 170
300-1000 Stiletto 135
1000-1300 Stiletto 120
1300-2000 Icarus FX 85

I am now back on a stiletto 135 :)
compared to some jumpers my progression was quite tame.

Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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ridebmxbikes

Swooping isnt guessing you are at the perfect altitude when you start your turn.



No, it certainly isn't. But it is about trying to be at the perfect altitude for your turn every time.

Quote

I start my turns from all kinds of different altitudes.



That may be "swooping" but it certainly isn't canopy piloting. CP involves trying to be as consistent as possible; having a plan and trying to stick to it as closely as possible every time.

I hope you're not advocating a hit and miss approach of using "all kinds of different altitudes" and then making up your turn on the fly. That is not recommended for either safety or skill progression.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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DocPop

*** Swooping isnt guessing you are at the perfect altitude when you start your turn.



No, it certainly isn't. But it is about trying to be at the perfect altitude for your turn every time.

Or it could be trying to have the perfect turn for your altitude every time. That is what he was trying to say and that is not a hit or miss approach. I jumped for two years without an altimeter. Swooping tight approaches and having very consistent accuracy. My accuracy on entry or landing did not change when I got an altimeter. I highly doubt I was at the exact same altitude every time although I certainly strived to be.

I would argue if you cant throw a turn from various altitudes and "make up your turn on the fly"(control speed of rotation among other variables) than your not as well skilled in canopy piloting as you may think. Actually this is precisely why people get hurt. Not knowing when to use alternate means to finish the turn if your approach requires it when you find yourself lower than you wanted
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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Why is it that most people that downsize aggressively (or are looking to downsize aggressively) look to justify their decisions based on other people? The best approach to decide when you should downsize should be based on the following two questions:

1. Why do I want to downsize and what benefits do I think I will get from downsizing?
2. Have I had this conversation with my canopy coach and what do they think of this idea against my current skill set and goals?

From my experience, what is important is time on the wing – the more you have on the wing the more consistent you are at developing and maintaining power. The skills you develop from long experience on a wing is key to progression of skill set. E.g. not having a bunch of time on any wing means that you don’t develop/build the skills that will carry you through your next canopy. My Sabre 150 helped me learn the basics of swooping, my Sabre 2 taught me about 270s and landing on rears, etc. It also can take longer to “get” certain things or size changes. E.g. I took me 200 or so jumps to get good performance out of an 84, coming from a 90velo. It took 300 or more jumps to get a decent 450 turn coming from a 270 turn.

Why do I mention this?
Good fundamentals generally develop slowly and carried through the rest of the canopies – this takes time and repetition.
It also gets harder to learn on a higher performance wing, it takes more time to unlock all the potential of the wing; they have a smaller margin for error and bleed power faster

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So I could not post my canopy progression in exactly the same way as for the a number of years I have had multiple canopies and the numbers are a bit rough. Right now I still have 4 mains, they each get varying degrees of use depending on what I am doing. For the last 7 years I have focussed pretty exclusively on CP. I have between 3000-3500 jumps. I have also had a ton of coaching off top level cp folks, compete regularly and do a lot of coaching myself.

I have upsized my main after getting on too much of a hot main (that I could not fly well) from a VX79 to a VE90, nothing wrong with the main but it was just too much for me at the time (around 1600 jumps) and trying to use it in comp. For day to day jumping I use my largest canopy; I am also thinking about selling my last 79 and getting a larger wing for downwind zone accuracy.

Interesting to see most of the people that talk up or think aggressively downsizing is the way to go have the least experience.

1-25 Student canopies
25-100 Icarus Beta 170 (1ish)
100-750 Sabre 1 150 (1.2)
750-900 Sabre 2 135 (1.3)
900-1150 mamba 117 (1.5)
VX 95 200
VX79 100
*Velo90 700 (2.2)
*Velo84 350 (2.3)
*JVX79 500+ (2.3-2.8)
Clara 69 200-250 (3.2-3.8)
*Petra 67 100 (2.9)

*still have
"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

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