Leaning forward in the harness

[iwasinkheson68 0]

A friend - and much better canopy pilot than I, even drunk and surrounded by whuffos, would ever suggest myself to be - and I were having a discussion about swoopers leaning forward in their harnesses. I had thought it was to reduce the parasitic drag of their own bodies and thus travel further and faster while looking more badass. He seemed to think this somehow put more pressure on the front risers, which then aided something or other to make canopy go further.

I struggle to see how, with both risers attached at the 3 ring, how this can put more pressure on the fronts.

If I am wrong, can someone explain it to me please?

[DvK 2]

I have no idea what I'm talking about, this is 100% intuitive, but I think it has something to do with shifting your center of mass (and thereby shifting the center of mass of the entire system, canopy,harness,jumper).

And obviously because it looks badass

[TheDoctor2608 0]

It won't change the pressure on the risers, they are both connected at the same point where the load is applied. But it does reduce drag and as you touch the ground it's just much easier to start running in a forward leaning position than being neutral oder even leaning back.

[Remster 30]

There is no physical way that you can shift loading front to back on risers when they are connected to the same point by changing your position in the harness.

Remster

[dwhenline 0]

I am not 100% convinced you are correct. Nor am I saying that you are wrong. I DO KNOW that when I fly my speed wing, that we specifically push and lean forward in the harness. It helps with the landings and carving the wing. I am not exactly sure why this is so but it is. The harness is a different harness with the risers coming more from the hip area . Perhaps a few more swoopers can weigh in.
dwh

[yoink 321]

dwhenline

Perhaps a few more swoopers can weigh in.
dwh

You don't need a swooper, you need an aerodynamics engineer...

This has been discussed several times with no clear consensus.

One camp thinks that as the attachment point is static all loading is done from that point and there is no alteration of CoG with body position, and any performance change is a result of reduced drag, pressure on the rear risers and a psychosomatic / placebo effect;

The other camp believes they see more gains than can be reasonably explained from the above so a shifting CoG may have something to do with it.


Some stuff in this thread about it
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4145123

[Alexg3265 0]

I agree with dvk. From a physics standpoint, the risers are linked by a single point, the three ring, so there's no messing with risers loading. Leaning forward decreases a little drag, but actually if you watch some good snoopers you'll see more of a swing effect with the canopy as the upper anchor point. They wind it up, and then in the corner and while planing out they swing forward. That small weight shift will push the whole harness back, using the whole System as a lever to tip the canopy ever so slightly forward arresting the recovery of the canopy and flattening it out. And then they swing back under it tipping the canopy up to land. Same thing kind with changing the recovery arc of a canopy by changing the line lengths. Longer lines =longer recovery arc (provided aoa and everything else identical.) It's a bigger swing and takes longer to get back under.
I have no idea what I'm talking about but it sounds good.

I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

[dwhenline 0]

I just watched a brian Germain video and he talked about leaning out of the harness and had some things to say about it. Talked about CG of the system and weighting rear risers,, perhaps changing AOA. I am not sure but
would be nice if he would chime in.

Brian????

[HUPRA 0]

I was on a Nick Batsch canopy camp recently where he mentioned leaning forward in the harness as a method of shortening the recovery arc slightly, not sure of the science behind it though....

[skow 6]

I guess the idea behind that is the sama as when flaring the canopy. As you apply brakes, you swing forward and whole system (canopy + pilot) rotates a bit in the pitch axis.

So basically when shifting the weight forward you "swing" and force the canopy to flare a bit.

The opposite also works, when you want to make recovery arc longer, you try to shift backwards (or kind of "hide" in the harness) and force the canopy to dive a little more.

[DocPop 1]

I agree about the suspended jumper moving forwards and backwards relative to the canopy.

I think there are two things that affect this:

1. lean forward - less drag on the jumper - jumper moves forward relative to the wing - system pitches up.
2. in order to pivot about the fulcrum (three-ring attachment) you have to apply some torque force to the system. This is done by applying force to the risers (usually the rears since this is happening during plane-out). So, inadvertently, leaning applies riser input.

Just my theories...

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[kuai43 7]

I had thought it was to reduce the parasitic drag of their own bodies and thus travel further and faster while looking more badass.

Fairly simple, it keeps their huge balls from dragging.

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[morris 0]

And the winner is: DocPop! Congratulations! He took the gold for mentioning: 1. lean forward - less drag on the jumper - jumper moves forward relative to the wing - system pitches up.

[RichLees 0]

I think DocPop's other point is equally valid: body pitch can be achieved through rear riser input which trims the canopy

[Kurbe105 1]

Leaning forward in the harness has multiple effects depending on how fast the canopy is flying. Nick and I used to watch hours of competition tapes trying to learn what the top guys were doing just after he earned his procard. At first we noticed what everyone notices... leaning forward and arching reduces drag and helps get you a little more pendulum forward and yes does flatten out the angle of attack ever so slightly. Then we noticed something else, a lot of jumpers had a bad tendency to let their knees hang down and not arch from the hips. Then finally one of us said "Dude, look how long even the best guy waits before he leans forward. They're almost all through the corner and have already started the deceleration cycle before leaning forward in the harness. If you're hitting speeds close to 90mph doing 450 deg rotations and you were to lean forward and get into that arched body position as you're still accelerating through the corner with your knees up and arching from the hips, you would be unbeatable in distance. Think about it... use your body to generate lift as well and you've got an edge no one else has." Multi-time world record distance runs later he still does it best! Nick does what he does because he is flying his body as much as the wing the entire time. Notice how he gets there while the canopy is still diving. Balls like freakin' coconuts I'm sayin'! http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/champion-skydiver-swoops-into-nz-video-5851854

[matt002 0]

I don't think I've met anyone who could give such a detailed description of his approach and turn as Nick, ahead of the curve in technical detail for sure.
I've tried his techniques and found I don't have the flexibility and coordination to get into the position properly before having rolled out of the recovery arc, nick is built for that very well.
I also think that having a small frame and maxing out on lead helps with distance as the suspended weight offers less drag for the came wingload.

[GoneCodFishing 24]

External forces and changes to the CoG affecting the momentum on single point attachments http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a3F7oaRJOw#t=84

[Kurbe105 1]

Here's some more really good footage of Nick's body position. On his rear facing camera footage notice how his hands are positioned on his rear risers. He's holding them from the front and towards the bottom of the riser as he's coming through the corner. This allows him to rotate his shoulders, keep his arms behind him, lean forward and arch. I picked up on this little trick and it seems to make a noticeable difference as my arms are now in my burble instead of above my head or out to my sides(like in my profile pic) creating drag and it's also easier to assume the position before having to give any canopy inputs. To me it just feels more natural :-) http://www.3news.co.nz/Horizontal-parachuting-with-a-top-skydiver/tabid/817/articleID/333804/Default.aspx#.UxIOgnH74kk.facebook

[shveddy 0]

Kurbe105

Leaning forward in the harness has multiple effects depending on how fast the canopy is flying. Nick and I used to watch hours of competition tapes trying to learn what the top guys were doing just after he earned his procard. At first we noticed what everyone notices... leaning forward and arching reduces drag and helps get you a little more pendulum forward and yes does flatten out the angle of attack ever so slightly. Then we noticed something else, a lot of jumpers had a bad tendency to let their knees hang down and not arch from the hips. Then finally one of us said "Dude, look how long even the best guy waits before he leans forward. They're almost all through the corner and have already started the deceleration cycle before leaning forward in the harness. If you're hitting speeds close to 90mph doing 450 deg rotations and you were to lean forward and get into that arched body position as you're still accelerating through the corner with your knees up and arching from the hips, you would be unbeatable in distance. Think about it... use your body to generate lift as well and you've got an edge no one else has." Multi-time world record distance runs later he still does it best! Nick does what he does because he is flying his body as much as the wing the entire time. Notice how he gets there while the canopy is still diving. Balls like freakin' coconuts I'm sayin'! http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/champion-skydiver-swoops-into-nz-video-5851854

I'm not sure that I'm reading this correctly, but it sounds like you're saying that he's essentially tracking through his swoop. That's fucking crazy, and very cool if it's the case.

[Kurbe105 1]

Yep, it is fucking crazy! No secret just bad ass skills and a whole lot of dedication!

[yoink 321]

Kurbe105

Think about it... use your body to generate lift as well and you've got an edge no one else has."[/url]

Not sure I buy the bit about generating lift from your body, but Nicks technique definitely seems to work for him!

[shveddy 0]

I don't know - 90mph is fast and look at what ski jumpers can do with similar speeds.

If he's tracking through his swoop, wouldn't it make sense for him to de-arch?

[yoink 321]

I absolutely agree that you can alter your aerodynamics through body position and that Nick's an expert at it.

I'm just one of those who think that you don't create 'lift' from your body, more that you reduce drag.

Of course, now I'm going to get jumped on by all the tracmonauti people who insist they create 'lift'...

[Kurbe105 1]

Just sharing our conversation from way back when. I got back on the scene last year after a 6 year hiatus due to a plane crash. I just do 270s & probably barely crack 60mph when I'm lucky. Nick's results tell the rest of the tale. My thought process was this... "If I hold my arm straight out of the car window at 60 mph with my hand flat and parallel to the ground this was the least drag I could have and felt little resistance. If I rotated my hand 90 deg so my palm was catching the relative wind this was the max drag I could have and felt mega resistance. But somewhere between 30 & 45 deg there was a sweet spot where my hand would support the entire weight of my arm without trying to pull me out of the car. Step up the speed to 80 mph and the sweet spot is even more noticeable. Logical thought would dictate that by presenting your body to the relative wind at just the right angle(also like being on the hill just after exit) you could help propel yourself in the direction you want to go."

I don't mind the voices in my head... they come up with some really cool ideas!

[sky12345 0]

shveddy

I don't know - 90mph is fast and look at what ski jumpers can do with similar speeds.

If he's tracking through his swoop, wouldn't it make sense for him to de-arch?

+1

it would be even better if he wore a wingsuit