groundlaunching a Stiletto ???

[Freeflaw 0]

relevant?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150340295080512&set=vb.703285511&type=2&theater

[Stumpy 256]

Freeflaw

relevant?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150340295080512&set=vb.703285511&type=2&theater

Some of those were awesome!

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[westcoastSD 0]

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It depends what you mean by 'appropriate'.

Is it a redesigned skydiving wing tweaked to perform better in hilly terrain? yes.

It is an all sail JVX with not attachment point and an open nose. Only recently have they put the open nose on them.

I agree they are for advanced only.

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Regardless of your distraction of the GLX, the original post was about the suitability of launching a Stilletto - I stand by my original answer:

You can, but it's stupid with more modern gear available, particularly for a beginner.
No responsible groundlaunching instructor anywhere in the world would say any different.

I believe you are wrong. Nil wind launches are for experts, these are a little more difficult with a parachute bt as soon as you have a few knots on the nose a stiletto is fine. A 135 stiletto glides very well and very similar to a 12.5 and it is a 12.5 square metre wing.

it reall depends on the terrain you have which glide ratio is best. Stiletto has the flattest glide and shortest line set out of all coomon parachutes these days. I am not a PD guy but I recommend a stiletto as being probably the mos appropriate parachute to speed fly with. I have experience doing so, in all conditions and on moderate to steep terrain.
Saying someone needs to go and drop another few grand on gear before start int learn speed fly is ridiculous.

Of course many sponsored instructors will suggest that is the case so they can offload gear onto new unsuspecting customers.

when I first started there were not such thing as speed wings, we all flew just fine. yes there were some accidents but you are not immune to accidents on a speed wing.

If you say that you should not speed fly on a parachute at all, you should not be speed flying as this is how the sport developed, and the designs are getting more and more parachute like every day.

a 3:1 ratio is great, many mountains and hill have this.

Mys suggestion for the OP is to use your stiletto, practice kiting first, use only mellow hills with no hazards to practice launching and move slowly and safely to higher hills. you will find you own limits. I find 5 knots on the nose is best for an easy take off...

Be safe and if there is doubt with the condition go home and wait another day. I have hundreds of flights with parachutes from falcon 175 to JVX 84... they are fine to use, just don't be an idiot. idiot kills.

[ChrisD 0]

The dude just wants to take "his" canopy out to a local hill for a spin or to have some fun. I took my old PD 200 to a ski hill once, I'm not going to purchase some of the specialty wings for this purpose...

My experience wasen't pretty and constantly fighting with the rear risers and toggles to get the thing inflated and/ or off the ground wasen't pretty either, but more than once I flew down the hill and it was kind of a gas. And yes I was scared shitless and not very good at it either...

I can see the potential for a hard hit, you can see that in ten min or less as soon as you figure out how to steer in a forward direction. I could also get just as wacked on one of those ground skateboards some kids were playing with as well.....

Is there an easy way to learn to get the thing in the air for a self launch? Any Utube vids ?? The Facebook link is excellent and reminds me of my day in the dirt....

I think we get the warnings to be safe and I appreciate this advice, but I'm going to use my skydiving rig for this anyways...

Just to see what happens....

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[shropshire 0]

ChrisD

Is there an easy way to learn to get the thing in the air for a self launch?
C

Practice Ground Handling (kite'ing as they call it in the US)... you've got to be confident that you can steer it when facing it and get it above your head (and down again) without running all over the hill!!! ...In all wind conditions
and on light wind days with that sort of canopy .. you're gonna have to run like a nutter ... start on shallow ground and get steeper and steeper.
Thing that 'most' skydivers don't understand anywhere near enough is turbulence - that's what is going to hurt you if you are not very careful...... if the ground's not smooth ... then the airflow isn't going to be either!!!

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[ChrisD 0]

Thanks for the reminder about the ground!

That was a huge thing with me cause I couldn't run that fast thru the weeds and all the loose and uneven rocks etc.

So I waited till dusk and moved over to the "Base Lodge" area at the ski hill we were using, which was like a slopeing manicured golf course. Once there I could run much more effectively!!

Thanks again
C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[yoink 321]

I give up.

You fuckers are your own worst enemies. No wonder we lose people when this is the advice we give.


Go for it. Fly a wing that isn't designed to deal with turbulence. I'm sure everyone will be fine on a Stilletto. Hell why not a Nova - it's a parachute, so it must be fine!

I don't give a shit anymore.

[AdD 1]

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and for the dousches saying that ground launching a parachute is not appropriate... what do you think of the GLX?

Not really, the GLX is flown only by a handful of active speedfliers and almost all of them from a skydiving/swooping background, sales are miniscule compared to real speedfly canopies from Ozone, Gin etc.

GLX is a highly specialized tool for steep downhill only, doesn't even compare to a Fluid, Fazer etc.

I would be surprised if more than 100 GLX were ever sold. Anyone who flies one likely has a number of other speedfly canopies too.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[AdD 1]

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Saying someone needs to go and drop another few grand on gear before start int learn speed fly is ridiculous.

No they should go to a training center and get training just like skydiving, base or paragliding. Then they should spend a few grand on the right gear.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[davelepka 4]

I made a couple attempts to ground launch a Stiletto with limited success. Part of it could have been due to poor site selection and having zero training of any kind.

Then I tried it with a Nano, and with some guidance from someone with some experience, and it was at least 10x easier.

I made the same assumptions that GL wings were 'just like' a Stiletto, but that turned out to not be true. The truth of matter is that a Stiletto is the closest skydiving canopy to a dedicated ground launching wing, but that still doesn't make it a good ground launching wing.

If you wanted to swoop, and had to choose between a Navigator, Lightning, and a Spectre, I would guess the Spectre would be my choice, but that still doesn't make it a good swooping canopy. The best out of that group, but not the best available overall.

[westcoastSD 0]

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I made a couple attempts to ground launch a Stiletto with limited success. Part of it could have been due to poor site selection and having zero training of any kind.

I have had a 100% success rate. I was probably flying an appropriate hill also...

[yoink 321]

I have a 100% success rate at swooping a Sabre too... doesn't mean it's the best or most appropriate tool for the job.

[westcoastSD 0]

No, but it means you can have fun in relative safety with such equipment, as long as you act in a relatively safe manner, avoid hazards and play within your capabilities.

I did the hard yards with kiting on the flat and watching others and keeping within my skill set. Starting on mellow hills that were too mellow to take off but enough to practice launching in various wind strengths, I have also (knock on wood) never injured myself on the hundreds of flights I have done. I am also quite conservative but not an asshole that needs to have the latest and greatest to perform an activity.

I started before there was any such thing as a speed wing, let alone the term. I suppose I should have waited for it to be invented by others that also used parachutes before trying?

I never said a stiletto is a the best tool for the job. If you want some serious air time get a 20m paraglider. There is a lot of options between a full blown paraglider and a comp velocity to 'ground launch' with.

Choose your own budget.

[stayhigh 2]

I agree with this dude above, and also

There is no one wing for all flying sites, some may require smaller wing, some may require big wing. Even on the same exact site, some windy days you'll want very small wing vs some days you'll want something in mini-wing category stuff.

Skydiving wing will totally work, it is harder to kite, it takes longer runway to start, and will require quite steep hill. And this hill needs to be STEEP.

If you can run/walk up and down rather easy it is probably not steep enough, if the hill looks so steep that it will require 100% commitment with your wing over your head is probably steep enough.

and let's not waste time for something less than 500-600 ft hill.

Make sure your Go-Pro is on

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[yoink 321]

You guys are going to kill someone with this advice eventually.

I hope you can deal with that when it happens.


Nobody is saying skydiving wings can't work. Only that is less safe than using a wing designed for that environment - one that reacts better to turbulence; one that doesn't require a 40 degree slope and a 100% committed launch to get away with.

[westcoastSD 0]

Bro, STFU.

You are entitled to you opinion but it is wrong.

My advice is to practice, know your limits and have fun.

You obviously feel the need to use the latest and greatest gear... this is not necessary.

The 'all the gear and no idea' crew get injured or killed more often than any other demographic.

It is not about the wing you fly, it is about how much you know about it, what conditions you are in and how suitable your wing is for those conditions and that geography.

The major advantage of a speed wing is the ribs in the nose.

This is really only an advantage in nil wind, and nil win take offs are not advised nor usually successful for novices...

After that the angle of incidence may be more or less suitable for the terrain depending on the terrain and the most suitable angle of incidence may not be a speed wing. That is why more and more speed wings are taking on an angle of incidence similar to parachutes... paragliders are not used to a 3:1 glide ratio. Slowly they are longing for it. But if your hill is 2:1 then a parachute is a better tool.

I suppose those low barrel rolls you see the speed flyers do is safer than using a parachute to stay with the terrain?

I have had no issue with using parachutes. Plenty of people are injured or dead from using speed wings.

You need an attitude adjustment.

Get of your high horse.

[AdD 1]

Please establish your credentials by telling us how many speedfly specific wings you have flown/own and how many hours of airtime you actually have.

Your post is full of inaccuracies:

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The major advantage of a speed wing is the ribs in the nose.

The major advantage of a speedfly wing has little to do with the ribs. The ribs do not create 3x the glide of a skydiving wing, that is a combination of the planform and line length.

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This is really only an advantage in nil wind, and nil win take offs are not advised nor usually successful for novices...

The ribs keep the nose open in event of a turbulence induced collapse which means a faster recovery. This is a big deal in speedfly but not so much in skydiving.

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But if your hill is 2:1 then a parachute is a better tool.

Still incorrect, a speedfly wing at 5:1 allows for a longer zigzagging flight, so you get more airtime for the hike, not to mention the speedfly wing carves infinitely better without losing as much height.

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I have had no issue with using parachutes. Plenty of people are injured or dead from using speed wings.

It is true that many have died on speedwings, but there would be many more incidents if the active speedflying community actually took your advice and used inappropriate gear.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[westcoastSD 0]

A wing that has 3x the glide ratio of a parachute is not a speed wing, it is a paraglider...

I am talking about safety. There are speed wings with very similar angle of incidence as a parachute and some with a much flatter glide. A real gear freak would have a quiver of different wings for different winds and hills... a 3:1 would be an essential part of that quiver.

I do not deny that a speed wing give you more glide and more air time. A parachute gives you more speed. and a large parachute can out glide a small speed wing.

You are questioning safety... I have only had collapses when kiting in dodgy conditions.

I have also flown when conditions were stronger than what you would have wanted on some speed wings (15 knots+). The para gliders had gone home, the hang gliders had gone home and we sessioned all afternoon in smooth winds and even soaring on our small cross braced parachutes. (this was when we were very current and doing it daily).

I see speed flyers take a steeper fall line than the soaring you describe. The also do barrel rolls to stay with the terrain as their wings out fly the hill. What you enjoy and then next guy enjoys might be two separate things. You also might have a place where you can drive to the top and have 3000' of flight.

Each scenario is different.

You call it inappropriate gear... Tell tat to the PDFT that regularly fly small parachutes in the mountains. I suppose they are being inappropriate also? Once you are in flight it really does not make a difference where you exited from be it a foot launch or a helicopter.

And BTW I have foot launched in order of size and experience;

cruizelight 200, falcon 170, vengence 170, stiletto 150, stiletto 135, stiletto 120, crossfire 119, crossfire 109 (this is what I have the most experience on), Alpha 105, JVX 86 and JVX84. Never used a speed wing though I have had plenty of chances. I like to swoop so I like to stay with the ground without barrel rolling.

I have done hundreds of flights (havn't logged them) fuck know how many hours, but all epic.

I started in 2002 and am not the current these days. Might get a speed wing one day but had used skis with stiletto 120 and fly fight next to my buddies with 12.5 Gin nanos. They get a little more glide than me, but it is horses for courses when you want to ski as well.

I surprisingly yet to have a failed launch on skis with a stiletto. I was going to sew some mylar ribs in but have not found the need. My speed riding rig is tiny and really comfortable. I have a GLH harness and my ST120 stuffs in there perfect. You could not fit a regular sail speed wing in this purpose built ground launching harness...

Hope to use it more in the future, it is collecting dust at the moment.

Don't spoil others' fun by being a gear freak know it all. You might have mellow hills and poor wind directions and need a speed wing to fly but with good hills and good wind direction any canopy can be flown comfortably,easily and safely.

Concentrate more on the safety and learning side of it.

[stayhigh 2]

All we are trying to say is that, there is a better tool for the job, but stiletto will work. Given condition that the hill is steep enough and there is some wind to help out.

Even with no wind, I've seen plenty of stiletto, x-fire, alpha, cobalt, safire fly.

Many just try em out at the site that has too little runaway and the hill not so steep enough.


Sites like Pacifica and Isabella you can pretty much fly anything you want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRm_9ovqfOI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubVV3i51bI

Soaring sites this ones, would probably require speedwing.

http://vimeo.com/41206514

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZcZVa7Y_No&feature=c4-overview&list=UUCl-TwWz3nTkdvDGkgSV0HQ


Anyone who tries groundlaunching, speedflying, whatever you call it, should seek advice.

If you aren't seeing any active flying on that certain hill, than it is probably not doable.

Remember, it requires lots of runway to take off specially with skydiving wing, and requires very steep hill, and another runway to land. So there aren't that many favorable places out there in the world.

Here is some dude trying without proper guidance, if you wanna play dumb, you better be tuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMjKLfCwVak

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[nutellaontoast 0]

yoink

I give up.

You fuckers are your own worst enemies. No wonder we lose people when this is the advice we give.


Go for it. Fly a wing that isn't designed to deal with turbulence. I'm sure everyone will be fine on a Stilletto. Hell why not a Nova - it's a parachute, so it must be fine!

I don't give a shit anymore.

And also, what THE FUCK are you talking like there is no such thing as turbulence in skydiving? If flying these wings in potentially turbulent air is stupid risky, then it's stupid risky to skydive on any hot day, any day where there could be a dust devil, and day where the winds might shift unexpectedly. Turbulence happens. Knowing how to avoid it is in most cases enough, and in some cases not. This is the risk we take all the damn time even as skydivers!

So please, go stand in the landing area at Eloy screaming about how it's not safe because none of them are flying parachutes designed for turbulence. I'm sure they'll be glad to hear you out.

If you want to give a shit, educate people properly on the risks of turbulence and how to avoid it best you can. Don't throw a fucking hissy fit.

Don't let the fact that I sound like I think that I know what I'm talking about fool you. I know that I don't know what I'm talking about

[AdD 1]

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A wing that has 3x the glide ratio of a parachute is not a speed wing, it is a paraglider...

So having admitted you've never even flown one how would you know? Like I said I get 5x on my Bobcat 16.5 and it is clearly a speed wing.

http://www.gingliders.com/speedflying/speedflying-gliders/bobcat/

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[Stumpy 256]

nutellaontoast

***I give up.

You fuckers are your own worst enemies. No wonder we lose people when this is the advice we give.


Go for it. Fly a wing that isn't designed to deal with turbulence. I'm sure everyone will be fine on a Stilletto. Hell why not a Nova - it's a parachute, so it must be fine!

I don't give a shit anymore.

And also, what THE FUCK are you talking like there is no such thing as turbulence in skydiving? If flying these wings in potentially turbulent air is stupid risky, then it's stupid risky to skydive on any hot day, any day where there could be a dust devil, and day where the winds might shift unexpectedly. Turbulence happens. Knowing how to avoid it is in most cases enough, and in some cases not. This is the risk we take all the damn time even as skydivers!

So please, go stand in the landing area at Eloy screaming about how it's not safe because none of them are flying parachutes designed for turbulence. I'm sure they'll be glad to hear you out.

If you want to give a shit, educate people properly on the risks of turbulence and how to avoid it best you can. Don't throw a fucking hissy fit.

Attitude aside, all Yoink is trying to say (and I agree) is that while Speedflying CAN be done with a skydiving wing, its not the best or safest by a long way, and most people would be much better off with a decent instructor on something designed for it.

As an aside - turbulence on the side of a hill, while fundamentally the same thing is a very different beast to a bit of rough air on a nice flat landing area.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[yoink 321]

Firstly, I apologise for the tone of that post. I was frustrated.

nutellaontoast

And also, what THE FUCK are you talking like there is no such thing as turbulence in skydiving?

Where did I say that?
Point it out please. In fact, point out anywhere in this thread where we're even talking about skydiving...

The entire point is that Speedflying / groundlaunching is a different sport to skydiving - something many skydivers seem to disbelieve, and should be treated as such. Yes, there are similarities, but there are differences too, and it's not knowing about those that'll kill you.

I've jumped Eloy. And Perris. I'm aware of turbulence and I usually stood myself down when it got turbulent. That was how I dealt with it.

However the likelihood of encountering it ( the conditions which cause it), the altitude and attitude at which you'd typically encounter it, and potential consequences are different in hilly terrain. You don't (typically) see large dust-devil type turbulence, but more rotor turbulence from other hills, rocks, valleys and the like. (If you're high-wind soaring the type of turbulence is often different again, with wind-shear being a big concern).

However, to use your example, if you run through a small dust devil at a dz when you're in your landing pattern - lets say it causes one side of your parachute to fold under. To recover from that you bury both toggles to reinflate your wing. That may take 50ft or so - if you're quick. Scary but might not be the end of the world...

... unless you're typically flying at less than 10ft above the ground at high speed, over rocky ground in an area which is usually difficult for a rescue team to get to...


Flying a wing designed to recover from collapses as fast as possible is a good idea in these conditions. It's safer than NOT doing it.


As for educating people - what do you think I'm doing? Just because you don't like or even agree with the lesson doesn't make it less true.

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Don't let the fact that I sound like I think that I know what I'm talking about fool you. I know that I don't know what I'm talking about

Evidently.

[westcoastSD 0]

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Like I said I get 5x on my Bobcat 16.5 and it is clearly a speed wing.

16.5 pffff, speed wing? More like a slow wing. lol

in all seriousness, I have seen a 16.5 in action, yes it gets more glide but 5x come on.a stiletto is 3:1 at least. 5x that is 15:1, I do not think you would get 15:1 on a 16.5.

The fellow that I saw using a 16.5 was doing so many erratic turns to stay with the hill that I was cringing the whole time...
that alone adds more risk than just swooping the terrain with a nice carve on a stiletto.

We could argue a day about this, like I said. Horses for courses.

[nutellaontoast 0]

yoink

Firstly, I apologise for the tone of that post. I was frustrated.

***And also, what THE FUCK are you talking like there is no such thing as turbulence in skydiving?

Where did I say that?You accused people of getting others killed. Therefor you think an inflatable wing that isn't equipped to handle turbulence and might encounter it has an unreasonable safety margin. Therefor skydiving wings aren't safe, ever, because there is almost always SOME chance of turbulence. Don't give me that stick your finger in my face saying "I'm not touching you." Yes, turbulence in the two sports manifests differently. Both can and have seriously injured/killed. Sometimes even to experienced experts in their fields.

GLing with old sykdiving gear in the proper circumstances is well established and within the limits of what plenty of us feel is safe. Not because we haven't heard you come in and talk about rotors, but because we know the risks and choose to accept them. If you want to help, shut the fuck up about my sig and educate people so they can make their own informed decisions.

Thank you for your apology. You were being an asshole and you still kind of are.

Don't let the fact that I sound like I think that I know what I'm talking about fool you. I know that I don't know what I'm talking about