Swooping without front risers

[AdD 1]

My speedriding canopy, Gin Bobcat, has rear riser trim tabs. You don't actually manipulate the risers on most speedfly canopies other than the trim tabs.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[sarahh 0]

Two of the the best swoopers I know do not use fronts at all. I learned from them how to swoop using harness only, mainly because I lack the upper body strength the hold the fronts down on a high degree turn without the risers being snatched from my hands. It all depends on what you learn and who from.
David Ludvik - great swooper, no front riser input.

[RichM 0]

BMFin

I brought the rear riser question to the table, because I think it is kind of strange that rear risers have still the same design as they had during the days where they were not really used for giving piloting input to the canopy. IMO its pretty strange that canopy pilots are supposed to give a substantial amount of piloting input to their canopy from a riser that offers such a poor usability.

How about a small roll of webbing sown onto each riser creating a block say 6 inches below the links. This would mean you could reach up, grab, allow the hands to slide down until the blocks provide grip. It would also ensure both hands are identical distances from the links. And blocks on the front of the rear risers would not complicate finding the toggles in a hurry should it be needed. Just a thought.

Rich M

[Pablo.Moreno 0]

BMFin

I saw this video a while ago where someone flew his setup so that as he got to his initiation altitude he placed his hands on the rears and initiated a 270 by harness input only. It turns out he never uses his fronts for turning and this way he has hes hands ready on the rears in good time.

I never heard of this technique. Obviously a lot of people use harness input of the latter revolutions, but I never really thought about not using fronts at all. Anyone else doing this?

Last month did a 395 ft swoop by doing a slow 90 harness, while other jumper did a 450 ft with a 450 front riser.

Technically we both did 345 and 400 since we were level off 50 feet before making the gates.
Both have same wing loading with me flying a JVX 94 and him flying a JVX 74.

[justme12001 0]

This is going to be a bit of a thread drift, but..

I jump both small(ish) canopies and large canopies. I recently got a MC-4 for demos, and it has trim tabs. So I started doing some research into trim tabs and came across 2 to 1s.

This got me thinking, has anyone ever tried using 2:1s for swooping? It seems to me like they should work for using fronts for large turns. Or can you not get enough input out of a 2:1 to get a good steep dive?

I'm thinking about grabbing an old set of risers and installing a 2:1 set up just to try it out. Does anyone see or know of a reason not to give it a shot?

[flightadvocate 0]

Points well taken, however, I'm with AggieDave on this one.

"Harness Only" approaches look like a great technique to explore but on a practical note, in terms of optimal performance and Competition, I am not aware of any recent Top level, World Champion CP pilots who have set speed or distance records Without initiating their turns with deep front risers. I am not sold on the idea that the "Harness only" technique is capable of reaching the Vmax necessary, although it may come close, for the proving grounds that are the CP Competition Circuits. I Would love to see some "Harnessers" beat Nick Batsch, Curt Bartholemew, all of PDFT including you Ian, without using Fronts. FRONT RISERS STILL RULE THE DAY UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE.... I would encourage all Harness only proponents to put their technique up against the worlds best and take it to their local CP association comps and may the best man win.

[jjudd 0]

Quote

Post: Points well taken, however, I'm with AggieDave on this one.

"Harness Only" approaches look like a great technique to explore but on a practical note, in terms of optimal performance and Competition, I am not aware of any recent Top level, World Champion CP pilots who have set speed or distance records Without initiating their turns with deep front risers. I am not sold on the idea that the "Harness only" technique is capable of reaching the Vmax necessary, although it may come close, for the proving grounds that are the CP Competition Circuits. I Would love to see some "Harnessers" beat Nick Batsch, Curt Bartholemew, all of PDFT including you Ian, without using Fronts. FRONT RISERS STILL RULE THE DAY UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE.... I would encourage all Harness only proponents to put their technique up against the worlds best and take it to their local CP association comps and may the best man win.

proven otherwise unfortunately... you are incorrect, nick batsch does pretty much an all harness turn fyi

harness is equally effective as fronts with a turn from a high enough altitude, especially on modern comp wings we are hitting equal vertical speeds harness or fronts, we all have the data to prove it too with flysight etc, and no competitor is using fronts all the way through their turns anyhow. Mid turn were all in the range of the high 80s to high 90's mph and some have hit above that on their wings now

AS for the local comps- flcpa etc are all happening and we are all neck and neck with different techniques. Take curt back when he won his first world medal doing a 270 with his usual fronts riser style and other competitors had comp revisions no one else had, I've placed myself in klatovy 8th overall, 3rd accuracy, of almost 100 competitors with all of the top 20 on PI's and Petras doing and all harness 270 on a vc84. My point is turn size and technique though important are not what make you win a meet or perform better then any other competitor.

Its all about who can be the most consistent on their gate placement and without sacrificing power and speed to make the gate ( clean turn and placement on the course), small mistakes make the difference of a 2.3 to a 2.6 and 120m run to a 150 m run now days. you can contend with any technique if your consistent and able to place it where you want each time. come out and play at the flcpa etc and see the proof if you don't believe it

[flightadvocate 0]

Nice post fellow Aviator, mad respect your way for using a Harness only approach to compete, but I'm not sure you proved the Harness only approach is equally effective at the World CP comp level. Front Riser techniques are here to stay, the Industry isn't suddenly getting requests for No Dive Loop Front risers due to a shift to Harness only approaches.

Drennan posts that they are equally effective for larger turns over 450, but then goes on to describe how he uses FR for the first 70%.... That isn't a Harness only approach. That is an integrated approach... Front Risers still get the canopy to Vmax first.

My point was that FR use is still the dominant technique for most Top level CP contenders. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought Nick Batsch was doing 810's using FR for the first 450 or so then finishing with Harness for the last 360, then to rears. If this is true then He still uses FR to get Vmax....and then a Harness turn to conserve the energy through the corner. I would be amazed to hear that in 2015 Batsch will be flying his new gear without front dive loops because he is only using Harness turns from now on. An Integrated FR to H turn is still a FR technique and that is distinguished from a H only turn.

If the H only turns are really equally effective, why does it seem that a serious majority of Podium placing CP pilots still initiate turns with aggressive FR first? I believe it is because you can't generate the same Power and Speed without using the Supercharger that are the Front Risers. The power band of a Harness only turn is sufficient, and probably comes close in Vertical Speeds, that is granted, but FR turns seem more precise, easier to control, generate Vmax more effectively and are here to stay as a dominant technique for CP Comps. I could be proven wrong....Im a bit of an old schooler...not current but love following the CP sport... mad respect to you, the industry, and all the great souls who dare to take on the sky and keep the sport moving forward.

[stayhigh 2]

Just saw up the front riser loops, they only add drag now.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[cs_troyk 0]

FWIW, Matt Shull (3rd at this year's Sunpath open) does not have dive loops on the front risers of his comp canopy. They're sewn over all the way to the links to reduce drag.

[danielcroft 2]

Whether or not people use harness and/or riser for vmax doesn't mean they'd ditch their dive loops, can we stop beating that horse now?

Justin said (and I've heard Ian say the same thing) that you can get vmax on harness alone on turns 450º and above which has been confirmed by flysight. Feel free to argue about why pilots don't use a harness only turn but if you want to argue that they're not hitting vmax, present data to refute or you're just offering an unfounded opinion.