Canopy Recommendations???

[marcwgarber 0]

My goodness. The silliness just keeps on rolling.

I am an experienced canopy pilot who was safely flying and landing relatively advanced canopies at relatively high wing-loadings when I took a break from the sport.

I was rated in multiple disciplines, trusted with students, and paid for my judgment. I performed safe swoop landings on a regular basis - but I always flew within my limits and was not a daredevil.

I don't need to be told how to fly a canopy. I know how to fly a canopy. When I fly new canopies I always pull high (sometimes at 13k) and spend a lot of time familiarizing myself with the characteristics, recovery arc, etc. I always ease myself into things. Yes, it has been awhile, but to some extent it's like riding a bike. I realize that I'm not current which is why I'm asking about canopies that are LARGER than what I used to fly.

I'm a responsible person taking a responsible and reasonable approach to my recurrency, and I don't need to be lectured about any of the above.

ALL I need is to know the options that fit my current situation. The fact that I'm asking for advice in that area does not make me ignorant or deficient in any other area as you seem to assume - it just means that I am ignorant as to the latest designs. Yes, I can read the manufacturers descriptions (and have), but what the manufacturers have to say often varies from what jumpers have to say.

Again - I'm not ignorant about how to fly a canopy, or how to approach recurrency in a reasonable and responsible manner. I've got that covered. I'm just trying to learn about the new designs. That's ALL. It's not real complicated. Really, it's not.

What qualifications do you have? Can you say something that impresses me, or are you just an armchair quarterback who likes to feel self-important by lecturing people in this forum? We had people like that back on rec.skydiving too.

BTW, it's "Sabre." Not "Saber." Duh.

Marc

ChrisD

IF he was an "adult" he would decide for himself???


I think the responses are drivin firstly by someone who is saying in the same sentance "I wan't to know the differences between a Katana and a Pilot / Saber, (that's a Saber one we are speaking about)

Cause Marc here dosent know the difference between a Katana and an original saber?

There is something wrong even asking this question!

And then there is all of this retoric about tell me what I want to know, just that, nothing else???

It's the same thing if you signed up for a computer class and then start telling the instructor what you want to learn: Why did the person sign up for the class?

This has nothing to do with being or not being an adult.

Just so everyone knows, no one is going to let Marc demo a perigrine...even if he is an adult. What do yo have to say about that???

ya know this person has been very vocal about what he wants to hear and or not hear,...

But in the same sentance he doesn't know the differnce between these canopies, there is something wrong here!! And quite frankly someone who is walking around stateing their an expert shouldn't be asking these questions! It is really like holding up a sign, "I'm an expeert but I don't know how a Katana flies in relation to a Pilot???"

If he was this gung ho to learn the differences,...

let him do what the rest of us have done and just visit DeLand and demo whatever!

That would be the adult thing to do!

C

A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.

[ChrisD 0]

Thank you for pointing out my spelling could use some improvment. C

Here's one that to this day I still don't understand, perhaps you can help with this as well:

"Wind Holds."

Many places,...as soon as the wind rises start limiting jumping based upon some pre set limit. But to me it seems the wind dosent discriminate on a persons ability! (Ya I know about wing loading and some canopies may retain their shape better than a circus tent sized navigator, but the whole issue dosent depend upon skill as much as mother nature will do her thing regardless of skill?) Do you get my point about skill and operating in an enviornment where your skill dosent make a bit of difference? When the winds pick up it dosent matter what your lic is. Because if you face a canopy collapse in highr winds, it's not something that anyone can do anything about it? So whatever your lic is it dosent matter. But people start limiting jumping based upon what lic a person holds? Does this make sense? So I say this is kind of faulty thinking. A "D" lic in these conditions isn't going to keep your canopy from collapsing, as compared with an "A" lic, (canopy size the same.)

You are also asking a very subjective thing when asking about certian canopies and how they fly, also when you take a storm and run it at 1.8 it is a totally different thing as when it is at 1.1. It's the way you are asking this question that is opening the door to everyones comments that you seem to take some offense too? Also you are not giving any feed back other than you have indicated you have read some manufacturers literature. Have you spoken with anyone at any recent DZ? About any particular canopy at a particular wing loading?

I havent seen you at DeLand nor have I heard of any interest in visiting PD? VA is only a 150 bucks by bus, train, or shuttle,...

in one weekend you can demo a highly loaded Sabre 2 or a katana, stelletto, or whatever any thoughts about that? Do you need help getting to deland, this is a great place to find out if anyone from your area is making a FL trip. You also have the Icarus /Precision folks just a short drive from the VA area and you can demo a VX series, Pinebluff is really only around the corner from you, if your info is accurate it's 3 hours away, any interest in visiting them? Looking at how much time you have spent writting here your halfway there, and they have a number of fine products, have you contacted them? They will love to match you up with something you would enjoy.

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[marcwgarber 0]

Stiletto, not "Stelletto." Why are you trolling me (on many levels) about the VX? Silly....

Marc

ChrisD

Thank you for pointing out my spelling could use some improvment. C

Here's one that to this day I still don't understand, perhaps you can help with this as well:

"Wind Holds."

Many places,...as soon as the wind rises start limiting jumping based upon some pre set limit. But to me it seems the wind dosent discriminate on a persons ability! (Ya I know about wing loading and some canopies may retain their shape better than a circus tent sized navigator, but the whole issue dosent depend upon skill as much as mother nature will do her thing regardless of skill?) Do you get my point about skill and operating in an enviornment where your skill dosent make a bit of difference? When the winds pick up it dosent matter what your lic is. Because if you face a canopy collapse in highr winds, it's not something that anyone can do anything about it? So whatever your lic is it dosent matter. But people start limiting jumping based upon what lic a person holds? Does this make sense? So I say this is kind of faulty thinking. A "D" lic in these conditions isn't going to keep your canopy from collapsing, as compared with an "A" lic, (canopy size the same.)

You are also asking a very subjective thing when asking about certian canopies and how they fly, also when you take a storm and run it at 1.8 it is a totally different thing as when it is at 1.1. It's the way you are asking this question that is opening the door to everyones comments that you seem to take some offense too? Also you are not giving any feed back other than you have indicated you have read some manufacturers literature. Have you spoken with anyone at any recent DZ? About any particular canopy at a particular wing loading?

I havent seen you at DeLand nor have I heard of any interest in visiting PD? VA is only a 150 bucks by bus, train, or shuttle,...

in one weekend you can demo a highly loaded Sabre 2 or a katana, stelletto, or whatever any thoughts about that? Do you need help getting to deland, this is a great place to find out if anyone from your area is making a FL trip. You also have the Icarus /Precision folks just a short drive from the VA area and you can demo a VX series, Pinebluff is really only around the corner from you, if your info is accurate it's 3 hours away, any interest in visiting them? Looking at how much time you have spent writting here your halfway there, and they have a number of fine products, have you contacted them? They will love to match you up with something you would enjoy.

A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Time to quit this, both of you.

Marc, you're certainly not helping the situation.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ianmdrennan 2]

Glanced over your other thread.

My thoughts:

170 until you get current (rent, demo, whatever it takes). Then, given your jump # goals and weight, a 150 thereafter IMO. Sabre2 would be my recommendation.

I wouldn't be flying anything smaller until you're a lot more current, have caught up with modern techniques, and jump more.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[marcwgarber 0]

LOL.

It's not my job to "help" a situation that I didn't create. I know what I know, and I know what I don't know. I know how to fly a canopy and how to approach my re-currency in a responsible and safe manner. Some over-exuberant arm chair quarterbacks have had a difficult time comprehending this, and have decided to lecture me on things that I do not need to be lectured on. Good grief.

Again, not my job to "help a situation" that I didn't create. I'm simply standing up for myself. If you can show me where I've made an unreasonable comment then I'll certainly give some careful attention to your words.

I see your credentials and respect them. Feedback from someone like you I will pay attention to. But please don't tell me that I'm "not helping" a situation that I didn't create. Instead, tell the other guys that THEY shouldn't have created the situation in the first place. :-)

Marc

ianmdrennan

Time to quit this, both of you.

Marc, you're certainly not helping the situation.

A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.

[marcwgarber 0]

Ian,

Thank you for the recommendations. My recurrency jump was on a Sabre2 170 and I did a carving 90 degree approach and had a very easy (sort of slow, imo) landing. I would have easily been fine with a 150 for sure. That being said, the Sabre2 is a MUCH BETTER canopy than the original Sabre. For sure.

I notice that you're on the PD Factory Team. That's very cool and I respect it. That being said, PD has always been very conservative in their recommendations. I generally jumped canopies that were two sizes smaller than PD recommended. I don't want to do that anymore (because I'm not current enough), but if I buy something it'll probably be in the 135 range - not 150. I consider 150 to be sort of a tuna boat. I've always flown within my limits before (as small as 88). 135 is conservative enough for me, even when I'm un-current.

Anyway, thanks for offering advice. Your words have been very reasonable and I will include them in my decision-making process. Sabre2 135 is something that I would definitely like to try out.

Marc
A-19889

ianmdrennan

Glanced over your other thread.

My thoughts:

170 until you get current (rent, demo, whatever it takes). Then, given your jump # goals and weight, a 150 thereafter IMO. Sabre2 would be my recommendation.

I wouldn't be flying anything smaller until you're a lot more current, have caught up with modern techniques, and jump more.

Blues,
Ian

A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.

[marcwgarber 0]

Thank you Ken. You sum it up very well.

Marc

gowlerk

Quote

jumping without an AAD. Lol. Flame on.

Marc

I can't believe the shit storm that parts of this thread have become. Some people just can't get over the fact that skydiving is an adult activity and that adults who understand the sport are entitled to decide for themselves the amount of risk they want to assume.

I have no canopy suggestions for you. I've been flying the same Stiletto 170 myself for nearly 20 years. I do want to say welcome back, be careful and enjoy. Thank God these people who would like nanny state regulation don't rule.

Ken

A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.

[ianmdrennan 2]

marcwgarber

LOL.

It's not my job to "help" a situation that I didn't create. I know what I know, and I know what I don't know. I know how to fly a canopy and how to approach my re-currency in a responsible and safe manner. Some over-exuberant arm chair quarterbacks have had a difficult time comprehending this, and have decided to lecture me on things that I do not need to be lectured on. Good grief.

Again, not my job to "help a situation" that I didn't create. I'm simply standing up for myself. If you can show me where I've made an unreasonable comment then I'll certainly give some careful attention to your words.

I see your credentials and respect them. Feedback from someone like you I will pay attention to. But please don't tell me that I'm "not helping" a situation that I didn't create. Instead, tell the other guys that THEY shouldn't have created the situation in the first place. :-)

Marc


***Time to quit this, both of you.

Marc, you're certainly not helping the situation.

Actually - yes, you are being part of the problem. You're overly defensive, and your posts reflect that. Couple that with your apparent resistance to advice that goes against what you want to hear, and posters are going to feel frustrated. It's just that simple.

Now, lets move on. Welcome back to skydiving. A lot has changed, 10+ years is a long time to have a lay off - regardless of previous currency - so don't let your prior experience blind you to changing what you might have done in the past.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Zlew 0]

marcwgarber

Ian,

That being said, PD has always been very conservative in their recommendations. I generally jumped canopies that were two sizes smaller than PD recommended.

Be careful there. That changed at some point 10-12 years ago. For example- when the stiletto first came out the "max" was 1.3 to 1 (as I remember). Back then going a size or two smaller was no big deal, but things have changed a bit.

They changed to the multi tiered wing loading recommendations, and the new max is almost 1.8. Going 2 sizes smaller in that situation probably wouldn't be a good idea.

edit-spellloooo

[marcwgarber 0]

That's a fair point. Yeah, when the Stiletto first came out I think it was a 600 jump minimum and the 1.3 wingloading maximum sounds about right. It's good to know that PD made their recommendations more realistic (and multi-tiered).

I reviewed Brian Germaine's wingloading sticky on this site recently. I didn't have time to delve into it deeply, but at first glance it certainly looked pretty good, and whenever I've crossed paths with Brian he has always made good sense.

That being said, different canopies have different characteristics. When I was highly current I jumped all sizes of Sabres from 170 to 97. 135 was the optimal size for me. I jumped Stilettos from 150 to 97. 120 was good, but 107 (or my similar Viper 105s) were better for me. I never jumped an Icarus Extreme FX larger than 93 (which was about right for me). The 88 was a little too hot.

Point being - different canopies have different characteristics and when I was current 135 was the optimal size on one canopy and 93 was the optimal size on another - there can be a big range, and I am simply looking to sort out the differences between the apples and oranges in the newer designs. I don't need advice on how to fly a canopy or how to approach recurrency in a responsible manner - I always ease myself into things and do generally have a clue (which some of the responders to this thread can't seem to grasp - frustrating).

ANYWAY, your point about PD's recommendations being more realistic than they used to be is a useful piece of information, and I thank you for it. That's the type of feedback that will help me make more informed decisions.

Marc

Zlew

***Ian,

That being said, PD has always been very conservative in their recommendations. I generally jumped canopies that were two sizes smaller than PD recommended.

Be careful there. That changed at some point 10-12 years ago. For example- when the stiletto first came out the "max" was 1.3 to 1 (as I remember). Back then going a size or two smaller was no big deal, but things have changed a bit.

They changed to the multi tiered wing loading recommendations, and the new max is almost 1.8. Going 2 sizes smaller in that situation probably wouldn't be a good idea.

edit-spellloooo

A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.

[marcwgarber 0]

Ian,

Thank you for welcoming me back to skydiving. I understand your point about "moving on," and I respect your credentials and your role as a Moderator. It is not (and never has been) my intention to "stir the pot" but I'd like to make one point:

- You state that I am "overly defensive." The funny thing is that I really haven't said anything that should require a "defense." I've made reasonable comments and asked reasonable questions, but I've had some busy-bodies make assumptions and jump to conclusions and offer comments that are not useful to me in any way. I'm "defending" against silliness. The problem lies with the people who are launching the silliness - not with me defending myself against it.

Yes, I've been out of the sport for awhile. But I know how to approach recurrency in a safe and responsible manner. Yes, most people buy one main and fly only that one main for a long time. That's not me and never was. I've owned and jumped and demo'd a gazillion different high performance canopies. Yes, I realize that having 1350 jumps is not really a lot - but my exposure to different canopies is far higher than my jump numbers would suggest - and aside from a couple of minor bumps and bruises (off-field, gusty) I landed them all safely.

I know what I know, and I know what I don't know. It's just annoying as hell to ask reasonable questions and have people pop out of the woodwork and lecture me on stuff that is unhelpful and non-responsive to my question. FRUSTRATING.

That's all. Okay, I think I got it off my chest. :-)



Blue Skies,

Marc
D-17862

P.S. - I will send a check for $50 to anyone who can convince me that I have made an unreasonable comment anywhere in this thread. The comment must be reviewed in it's full context.





Actually - yes, you are being part of the problem. You're overly defensive, and your posts reflect that. Couple that with your apparent resistance to advice that goes against what you want to hear, and posters are going to feel frustrated. It's just that simple.

Now, lets move on. Welcome back to skydiving. A lot has changed, 10+ years is a long time to have a lay off - regardless of previous currency - so don't let your prior experience blind you to changing what you might have done in the past.

Blues,
Ian

A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I will send a check for $50 to anyone who can convince me that I have made an unreasonable comment anywhere in this thread.

Ok -

Quote

I know what I don't know

Done.

Send the check to the 'Help Rico' fund for an injured jumper who needs a new wheelchair van. There's a thread all about it in the Bonfire forum.

[ChrisD 0]

Demo Programs
Tell us how yo make out,...

I mean, as I and many others have tried to do on multiple occasions, tried to point out that actually skydiving might be better than asking for information that dosent exsist,...

Nor does anyone support purchasing a canopy when it can be domoed first,...
C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[marcwgarber 0]

davelepka

Quote

I will send a check for $50 to anyone who can convince me that I have made an unreasonable comment anywhere in this thread.

Ok -
*** I know what I don't know

Done.

Ok. CONTEXT. "I know what I don't know" is me saying that I am aware of the gaps in my information about the newer canopy offerings. I did not make an unreasonable comment.

Next???

Marc

A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.

[ChrisD 0]

How's your progress with the various "demo" programs working out?

C



Or right about now you can drive up to CrossKeys and demo just about all of the Sabre 2, Katanas, etc,... not that far from your posted location. I checked on Google for you! NJ from VA,...about 2 hours away, including time for some traffic on 95??

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[marcwgarber 0]

Chris:

Your estimate of my travel time to Cross Keys is wildly inaccurate. Absurdly inaccurate. But thanks for your "encouragement."

Marc

A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.

[aaroncosbey 0]

westcoastSD

.

You have over 1000 jumps. I recommend a crossfire 119 for you.

They are a very predictable canopy, great openings, nice mellow glide ratio but can be swooped as well.

+1

[Decodiver 0]

Keep asking until you get someone who tells you what you want........like my kids.

Don't know you, but I'm gonna judge you on your behaviour here and you blowing off Dave and Ian. Have fun, I hope you don't hurt someone else that's all.

Blue Skies.

[marcwgarber 0]

Decodiver

Keep asking until you get someone who tells you what you want........like my kids.

Don't know you, but I'm gonna judge you on your behaviour here and you blowing off Dave and Ian. Have fun, I hope you don't hurt someone else that's all.

Blue Skies.

Apparently, the judgment and skill required to obtain an AFF rating, Tandem rating, Rigger's ticket, and fly video several hundred times don't count for diddly-squat after taking some time off.

If you take some time off then you apparently revert to the status of a moronic novice with zero judgment. At least that's how some people seem to feel. I find that to be really out of place in a sport that has traditionally involved a great degree of personal responsibility, but whatever.

I'll repeat my earlier challenge. Show me where I've made an irresponsible statement (paraphrased - I'm not scrolling up for my exact words).

Who knew that asking for advice about canopies that are a good bit LARGER than I used to jump would elicit such responses? Sheesh.

I mean, I stated my intention to fly significantly LARGER canopies than I used to, and to fly them in a MORE CONSERVATIVE manner than I used to, and yet I keep getting criticized. Some folks are treating me as if I have no common sense at all. I do. I assure you. WTF.

What a rude and demeaning return to the sport (from some of you).

Marc

A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.