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uberchris

riser pressure

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swoopfly

******with smaller highly loaded canopies you dont pull your risers, its all harness input. It also keeps your wing from deforming while picking up alot of speed. therefore not bleeding off the speed your generated.



That's not a very effective way to fly a 150.

Hence why i stated WITH SMALLER HIGHLY LOADED CANOPIES.

There is no need to shout! ;)

The OP was asking about a 150, and your answer gave no indication of your definition of "small" or "highly loaded". To a person who has only jumped 170s or bigger a 150 might feel small.

My comment was adding value to yours for the OP.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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Hello, all of that talk about big riser vs harness turns was interesting and informative. However I was really just wanting to know why going from 190 to 170 the riser pressure was less, and when I went from 170 to 150 it was substantially more, even more than the 190. All on sabre 2s.
All I am doing and interested in is increasing speed a little for landing, by doing double front approaches. No turns or anything like that. I found it makes it easier to land with a bit more speed.

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cbassmnm

Hello, all of that talk about big riser vs harness turns was interesting and informative. However I was really just wanting to know why going from 190 to 170 the riser pressure was less, and when I went from 170 to 150 it was substantially more, even more than the 190. All on sabre 2s.
All I am doing and interested in is increasing speed a little for landing, by doing double front approaches. No turns or anything like that. I found it makes it easier to land with a bit more speed.



The important thing to focus on here is for the canopy to continually be accelerating all the way until you want to start your plane out/flare. How are you leading into your double front approach? It sounds like your already in full flight before you pull them down.

All the World Record setters I know use 3 phases of acceleration to maximize the length of time the canopy is accelerating and not necessarily their top speed. The technique Nick Batsch uses (and was taught by J. Moledzki) is to link together the 3 ways we know how to make a canopy accelerate(letting up on brakes, pulling down double fronts, and turning the canopy)

1) Go into deep brakes and get your speed as close to zero as you can without stalling the wing. 2) Let up on the brakes and let the canopy surge until it's done accelerating, feel it baby... 3) Reach up and grab double fronts and smoothly pull them as close to your abdomen as you can(yes I said abdomen, if your crying about riser pressure then man up and bulk up. It's called a sport for a reason). 4) Let the canopy surge until you feel the acceleration peak. 5) Slowly let up on one riser to begin your turn(with your front risers buried in your abdomen you can do this by just leaning in the harness) keeping the rotation slow for the first 1/3 to 1/2 of your rotation(for constant acceleration, not quick acceleration) then completely let up on the outside riser to finish the last portion more quickly. This keeps the canopy accelerating the entire time through the recovery arc and you avoid maxing out your speed prematurely.

Even though you're keeping your approach straight in and think it's less critical, the first 2 phases of the acceleration cycle are the most important. If you don't execute smoothly and in the proper sequence at the start, you'll never go as fast or far as the person who does.

BTW... I would guess the higher front riser pressure is coming from the smaller wing going faster in full flight. This will pressurize the wing more making the risers harder to pull. If you start from deep brakes you'll notice much less pressure when you pull them down.

Be careful my friend. The ground wins ALWAYS!!!

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I love the internet. Guy with 300 jumps wants to know why riser pressure changed inconsistently between 2 downsizes....just wants to do double fronts for a little speed.

cbassmnm

All I am doing and interested in is increasing speed a little for landing, by doing double front approaches. No turns or anything like that. I found it makes it easier to land with a bit more speed....

However I was really just wanting to know why going from 190 to 170 the riser pressure was less, and when I went from 170 to 150 it was substantially more, even more than the 190.



His reply- Cliff's notes canopy course on how to do big turn swoops in the style of Jay and Nick.


Kurbe105

The important thing to focus on here is for the canopy to continually be accelerating all the way until you want to start your plane out/flare. How are you leading into your double front approach? It sounds like your already in full flight before you pull them down.

All the World Record setters I know use 3 phases of acceleration to maximize the length of time the canopy is accelerating and not necessarily their top speed. The technique Nick Batsch uses (and was taught by J. Moledzki) is to link together the 3 ways we know how to make a canopy accelerate(letting up on brakes, pulling down double fronts, and turning the canopy)

1) Go into deep brakes and get your speed as close to zero as you can without stalling the wing. 2) Let up on the brakes and let the canopy surge until it's done accelerating, feel it baby... 3) Reach up and grab double fronts and smoothly pull them as close to your abdomen as you can(yes I said abdomen, if your crying about riser pressure then man up and bulk up. It's called a sport for a reason). 4) Let the canopy surge until you feel the acceleration peak. 5) Slowly let up on one riser to begin your turn(with your front risers buried in your abdomen you can do this by just leaning in the harness) keeping the rotation slow for the first 1/3 to 1/2 of your rotation(for constant acceleration, not quick acceleration) then completely let up on the outside riser to finish the last portion more quickly. This keeps the canopy accelerating the entire time through the recovery arc and you avoid maxing out your speed prematurely.

Even though you're keeping your approach straight in and think it's less critical, the first 2 phases of the acceleration cycle are the most important. If you don't execute smoothly and in the proper sequence at the start, you'll never go as fast or far as the person who does.

BTW... I would guess the higher front riser pressure is coming from the smaller wing going faster in full flight. This will pressurize the wing more making the risers harder to pull. If you start from deep brakes you'll notice much less pressure when you pull them down.

Be careful my friend. The ground wins ALWAYS!!!

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Another detail that I cannot resist commenting on:

Kurbe105

if your crying about riser pressure then man up and bulk up.



I keep hearing this all the time. People seem to think that the more strength you have, the less you need to worry about riser pressure.

However, the fact is that once you have pulled enough to lift your bodyweight, it doesnt really matter how much strenght you have. Obviously no one is able to pull down the risers more than their own bodyweight.

Even a guy with bad physique is able to make one pull up and keep his body suspended for a while. Hell, most people are able to keep their body weight suspended with one arm relatively easy. It doesnt take more than that actually.

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These last two posts are off topic and just plain wrong. Riser to abs? Lol. Right. Just bulk up! Ha. Bogus manual for guy doing straight in approach. Smooth move. He doesn't have enough experience to know how bogus it is.

And Zlew your overlooking physics. Take a baseball and attach to 1lb fishing line. Now try and swing this in a tight 360. Oops. How did that happen? I too can not believe what he said about the condeceding "bulk up" (and I used to spend extra time on the lat machine simulating riser pull angles) but for a completely different reason than yours
And now I contributed to being off topic. Sorry



BMFin

Another detail that I cannot resist commenting on:
[:
*** if your crying about riser pressure then man up and bulk up.



I keep hearing this all the time. People seem to think that the more strength you have, the less you need to worry about riser pressure.

However, the fact is that once you have pulled enough to lift your bodyweight, it doesnt really matter how much strenght you have. Obviously no one is able to pull down the risers more than their own bodyweight.

Even a guy with bad physique is able to make one pull up and keep his body suspended for a while. Hell, most people are able to keep their body weight suspended with one arm relatively easy. It doesnt take more than that actually.
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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I always start my double front approach from about 1/4 to 1/2 brakes...toggles about to shoulders or so. This was good for the 170. For the 150 it helped too, but still could not hold them down for about 2 seconds.
I haven't tried from very deep brakes yet, but I'm sure it would help. haven't been jumping much lately due to weather.

Each canopy and downsize is indeed different, and not expect the same characteristics from one downsize to the next even if its the same canopy.

I dont think bulking up anymore would help. I can do about 10 pullups.

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Zlew you did make me laugh out loud at myself!!!

I'm confused though Craddock over what's bogus about double front risers to your abs? When someone pulls them down in front of their chin, all the force is on their biceps and the risers have tremendous leverage to get pulled out of his or her grasp. By getting the risers down to my upper abs/ribs and locking my hands under my chest muscles and my arms against my ribs I can hold the dive much longer and make the first part of my rotation super slow. The guys who are in iron man shape also do a crunch at this point and curl up so their hands are almost to their belly button. I'm fat dude!!! 2.15 under a 103 now with no weight and can't quite hold the crunch.

Been out of the loop for a bit because I took a siesta for a while after our Otter crashed back in '06. Started jumping and swooping again this summer. I went with Nick to all his amateur comps and watched him earn his Pro License in 2005. I'm not trying to tell anyone how they should fly their wing. I'm just letting you know what all the top competitors with the best results were doing.

I watched JM teach someone with 250 jumps at a 1.2wl under a square the same exact acceleration techniques he was teaching the rest of us under highly loaded x-braced canopies. The only difference was the amount of rotation. The novice jumper started with straight in approaches learning to put the first 2 acceleration cycles together correctly. After the first 2 days and about 15 jumps the novice was nailing straight in double fronts. It was impressive how powerful proper technique is! The physics never changes. The longer you accelerate the wing... the longer it takes to decelerate.

One of the big keys is how to operate all the controls and have maximum control/leverage. CBASS don't take my word for it... Test it at altitude for yourself. Pull your fronts down and lock your hands under your chest muscles and your arms against your body. See how long you can hold that position. If you want throw in some turns(up high of course) just by leaning your upper body. I think you'll really be surprised how much longer you can hold it by maximizing your leverage this way. This is the position I always use when checking control line slack also but that's just me.

I also suggest if you're going to go to a deep brake approach instead of a 1/2 -1/4 brake approach, allow more time(maybe an extra 1 to 1.5 sec) for the canopy to accelerate before pulling down on the fronts. Practice this up high. Wait until you feel the surge and the wing accelerate before pulling down on the fronts. Once you have them down the optimum amount of time to hold them is just until you feel the canopy acceleration flatten out. At that point your at max speed and the wing will only maintain or start to decelerate without a rotation. Also practice letting up on the fronts smoothly and not just letting go of them.

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Kurbe105

Zlew you did make me laugh out loud at myself!!!
I'm confused though over what's bogus about double front risers to your abs?



Hey there- I didn't say anything was bogus about it. I think it is a technique that many of us use (or try to get as close to as we can).

It looks like you like to teach and help. That can be a great thing! I just thought it was humorous; as this situation to me was similar to -

Q "Why does my 2013 honda civic seem harder to turn than my 2009 model?"

A- "If you want to win in F1, these are the 10 things Ayrton Senna does to maximize his performance through a hairpin..."

I just found it amusing. :) Glad to have you back in the air.

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Zlew

***Zlew you did make me laugh out loud at myself!!!
I'm confused though over what's bogus about double front risers to your abs?



Hey there- I didn't say anything was bogus about it. I think it is a technique that many of us use (or try to get as close to as we can).

It looks like you like to teach and help. That can be a great thing! I just thought it was humorous; as this situation to me was similar to -

Q "Why does my 2013 honda civic seem harder to turn than my 2009 model?"

A- "If you want to win in F1, these are the 10 things Ayrton Senna does to maximize his performance through a hairpin..."

I just found it amusing. :) Glad to have you back in the air.

My Bad... I got the two posts confused. Sometimes I do get a little carried away. I did hold back though from suggesting he has his rigger stitch the edges of his risers together!! Lol Thanks for the laugh and the welcome. It feels great to be swooping again!!!

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[i agree with Kurbe105, by going into deep brakes you really slow down your foreword speed and relieve a huge amount pressure , as the canopy surges foreword it is easy to bring your (elbows) straight down by your side or slightly behind. This leaves your toggles at about your lower pectoral muscles. if you add an abb crunch in you can gain another 1 1/2" or 2", this would put your toggles down by your stomach. It 'a not about biceps strength !

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"I'm confused though Craddock over what's bogus about double front risers to your abs? When someone pulls them down in front of their chin, all the force is on their biceps and the risers have tremendous leverage to get pulled out of his or her grasp. By getting the risers down to my upper abs/ribs and locking my hands under my chest muscles and my arms against my ribs I can hold the dive much longer and make the first part of my rotation super slow. The guys who are in iron man shape also do a crunch at this point and curl up so their hands are almost to their belly button"

well....Not only do you suggest risers to abs but your initial post suggested that one riser was held there thru part of the turn as the turn started from double fronts to belly button. Take a look at attached pic. How far are the dive loops from the belly button? You can crunch all you want. I don't care if you bring your ankles to your ears, that is still a tremendous distance between those two points. That's all my point was. And you are working outside your large muscle groups once you get past a certain point. I would love to see someone get those hands in those pics to their belly button.

The basic technique you describe is sound and used at the beginning of the dive by many. It is just the (distance)x (time) you are pulling down those front line groups that I have a problem with . I should have stayed out of it. Harness input has a large factor in controlling continuing the turn and is not even mentioned. Still way off topic. And I do apologize for my wording. Upon rereading I kind of sounded like an Ass. I really was put off by your bulk up comment as being a bit over the top. Sorry
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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Well I would have to capture a still from a dive video then. But transitioning from a braked approach to the beggining of dive /turn the risers are still in the same place as he goes for the loops. And the abs are in the same spot. To pull down risers four feet to belly button..... ??? He did correct that lower body will come up to meet vs initial description. If I had any pics from the braked approach before committing to turn the distance would be the same. Pretend the water isn't there and I am just slowing down getting ready for deep brakes to transistion to pull the risers down four feet! Show me. Should this be a different thread?
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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With a wide angle lens distance can be deceiving. I am not wanting to come across wrong and should have just stayed out of it. I wish I could just know I was wrong at this point so we are not arguing. But I will say in that move the knee can come WELL above belly button. In the crunch the knee could almost come as high as shoulder with enough strength(and he is strong) I can see nothing that indicates he is below his knee or even close to his belly button. Further more I only see one riser in the field of view. Not trying cause a problem but there is nothing that indicates this was a double front locked to abs at beginning of approach as described. Also note this is a velocity. You think turn would be identical on a xaos 27 or jvx? We will have to agree to disagree. I wasn't really a total wimp in that pic just because I wasn't as strong as Jay but I know how far I could or couldn't pull a double front riser, much less continue to hold it thru the turn. Belly button is a long way down!(3-4ft!). And every canopy is different. Thats all.

Anyway. He really finished that turn quick to line that up. It was good work and a beautiful location to jump. I hope someone doesn't get killed not realizing just how critical that last part of the turn(correction)was and brushing it off as simple fun. Many people don't recognize where they are at in that crucial moment. I don't feel comfortable about who may be taking a lesson right now.
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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Sorry for all the confusion Craddock. When I said abdomen I meant abdomen. Didn't mean for anyone to interpret it as belly button. As far as harness inputs, I was taught they are used to finish big rotations once the riser pressure gets too high. JM taught us to turn your hips and point your toes the direction you want to go and then straighten your legs like you want to stand up. This is way more effective than simply leaning in the harness. Again, try it up high if you don't believe.

Sorry about the bulking up comment. That's what I was told when I first started jumping a Velo and the pressure was way higher than my old Jedei 105. After a hundred jumps or so on the Velo I went to a JVX and the same techniques produced much stronger results than on the Velo. The JVX is a powerhouse in rear risers but the setup was the same.

Do us a favor though and put on a hard helmet. I want to be able to have more good threads with you in the future. Makes me cringe to see people swooping with a bare melon. Thanks for the opinions. Definitely helped clarify a few things ;-)

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Just for record this is where I got belly button from.

"The guys who are in iron man shape also do a crunch at this point and curl up so their hands are almost to their belly button. ".

And definitely agree need to load harness more than a lean. If I said anything about learning I was very tired. I had my laterals real short to help keep everything tight for transfer on a rig I recently sold.
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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I can see the confusion there. What I was referring to was how the distance from your chest muscles to your belly button will close if you are in great shape and add the crunch to your double front approach. The risers don't really go any further but in my opinion it makes it easier to hang on during the rotation. Much like locking your arms and legs to rest when rock climbing and not staying in a transitional position.

What was the original question again?? :S

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Not sure about that one. Haven't really tested it or know anyone who has. From what I understand longer risers give you a slightly longer recovery arc but other than that I would just be making stuff up. I've always used Mirage 22". Anyone have any personal experience with this?

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