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Quagmirian

So I want to swoop...

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Yea I don't know.

I completely agree with dave and others but personally i believe you should simply jump normally with one parachute you feel comfortable with, you will need at least 100-150 jumps to even start thinking about swooping. Get to know your canopy, get the feeling for when it stalls, how it acts in high winds, low winds, how fast/slow it turns, play with front/rear risers in high alt to learn the differences. Then you move on and learn to land with your rear risers only, and when you have all that, get a coach that will teach you how to plan your swoop approach, which is normally without turns in the beginning. Simply both front risers down to max to gain speed, rear risers to cover, lean a bit forward and use toggles to break when losing alt and speed during the swoop. You will also have to go through training on how to use your legs properly when landing in high (higher) speed. You can injure yourself (or even die) just by crashing during you swoop.

I dont say Im a pro or know any better, but I have my own experience, and I was rather quick in learning than many others who prefer to take it easy and do swoops and alike only after 1000+ jumps. I was downsizing rather quick from 190 to 170 to 150 to 130 to 110 to currently JVX 99 all within 400 jumps! I consider myself lucky to have some of my best friends to be instructors at my home dropzone and helping me out to improve everyday and with every jump. I'm a curious mother-effer and I don't try new things unless I've asked all possible questions to the right people about my next move. So with a bit over 500 jumps im swooping the shh out of my JVX 99.

It def is a very dangerous sport all in all but the most dangerous approach within this sport is obviously the swoop. And to be honest I have more respect to people taking it easy and learning over the long way than people like me who need to have quick progress ;-)

Anyhow, the best way to go for you is def just jump as many times as possible, learn your canopy and when you feel safe underneath it, continue progressively. Plus, your canopy may not be suitable for swooping, you may wanna look for a canopy that has easy input to front and back risers and that 'dives' properly. Practically you can make any canopy dive into a swoop but you will need a hell-of-alota power in your arms for some of the canopies out there.

Also, take a good look in the fatalities section on dropzone.com, just so you see how many people die taking a wrong approach in attempt to swoop (hard landing deaths). Its very easy to watch all these pros on youtube doing their swoops. Just remember they all have above 2000 jumps and know what they're doing :-) You need only one stupid mistake and a split second to give up your life...

Good luck to you!!

Cheers,
Yako



weird, my recent canopy coach said youd be a complete idiot to land on rear risers alone, and that you should never do it. whats the reason that you would have to do that? if your brakes are fucked you should have chopped your canopy
gravity brings me down.........

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weird, my recent canopy coach said youd be a complete idiot to land on rear risers alone, and that you should never do it. whats the reason that you would have to do that? if your brakes are fucked you should have chopped your canopy



It is perfectly reasonable to land on rears alone and it is one of the skills that some coaches recommend for getting to know all about your canopy.

It's not a mandatory skill, but what would YOU do if a toggle came off at 600' AGL?
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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weird, my recent canopy coach said youd be a complete idiot to land on rear risers alone, and that you should never do it. whats the reason that you would have to do that? if your brakes are fucked you should have chopped your canopy



I'm not sure you got the advice quite right, or your coach isn't doing you any favors.

If you are proficient at landing with your rears, and your canopy is otherwise uncomprimised, then cutting away would be a bad idea and an un-neccesary risk.

That said, proficiency takes a long time to develop, and should not be intermingled with an emergency situation or a comprimised canopy.

I spent a week or two last month landing with only my rears, just for fun. I kept my toggles in my hands, but was able to shut my canopy down enough with the rears that I never needed to transition to the toggles. That said, I have 1000+ jumps on my current canopy and have used my rears on 90% of those.

Now about your coach, he was talking to a guy with a shade over 200 jumps, and it might not be in your best interest to land with your rears in an emergency situation. Additionally, if your brakes are comprimised, there's a chance that the canopy isn't going to fly 'as-normal' in full flight, and that would only complicate landing on rears.

There are very few 'universal truths in skydiving, but one of them is this - anytime you get advice about anything, do the following - consider the source, consider the intended recipient, and consider the circumstances and then remember that changing any one of three might make the advice null and void.

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weird, my recent canopy coach said youd be a complete idiot to land on rear risers alone, and that you should never do it. whats the reason that you would have to do that? if your brakes are fucked you should have chopped your canopy



I'm not sure you got the advice quite right, or your coach isn't doing you any favors.

If you are proficient at landing with your rears, and your canopy is otherwise uncomprimised, then cutting away would be a bad idea and an un-neccesary risk.

That said, proficiency takes a long time to develop, and should not be intermingled with an emergency situation or a comprimised canopy.



Agreed. I land on rears only every now and then just cause it amuses me that it's possible (i.e. it's fun). It always confuses newer jumpers though "why didn't you use your toggles, why didn't you die." It's all about understanding how the parachute works :)

It's a good skill to have and if I was assured of landing on DZ I would not cut away from a broken brake line/stuck toggle. If it was likely that I had to land off, I prolly would. That's subject to the fact that I don't like landing in weird places on a velocity with no brakes when I can't be sure of a nice place to slide.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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The first guy swooping in that video was Brady Kane. One of the best and safest swoopers I have ever known. He died swooping two years ago. I miss him everyday. Be safe, this shit is no joke.



Ya I know. I have only been in the sport for a wink over 3 years and all I have to do is think of the great ones that we have lost in that short time. Kane, Emily, Tagle, Peter G, and so on. If those guys can get dead so can I, very easily. I never met Brady, but heard only good things about him. Sorry for your loss.
I am an asshole, but I am honest

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i suppose i do see your guys point......

i think what my coach was getting at was that with low expeirence (me), landing with rears could be more dangerous because the stall point occurs much quicker and with less input...........

but i understand where you guys are coming from with being prepared for when the shit hits the fan.

question - i have lost a toggle on a slider down BASE jump and landed uneventfully with a combination of rears and one toggle...........would you do the same with a skydive canopy or would you use just your rears?
gravity brings me down.........

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When you pull on a control line (toggle/brake) you pull down just the tail of the canopy whereas when you pull on a rear riser you are pulling down all of your C and D lines on that side. Each one will affect the flight of the canopy in different ways. You may have gotten away with it on a large docile BASE canopy but you may not on a skydiving canopy. Better to just use rears.

BASE jumping with under 300 jumps? I won't comment on that.
"If I can't be my own, I'll feel better dead." Layne Staley

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When you pull on a control line (toggle/brake) you pull down just the tail of the canopy whereas when you pull on a rear riser you are pulling down all of your C and D lines on that side. Each one will affect the flight of the canopy in different ways. You may have gotten away with it on a large docile BASE canopy but you may not on a skydiving canopy. Better to just use rears.

BASE jumping with under 300 jumps? I won't comment on that.



I will chris you are one crazy mofo...
BASE 1519

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On a slightly more practical note...

I'm trying to organise some form of canopy coaching at every BCPA event this year. I already have a flight-1 course booked in at the Hib event in March and I'm hoping to get something lined up for Freshers in November too.

I'll let you know as soon as I open registration for the courses (without sounding creepy, I know who you are ;))



As promised, registration for the Brian Vacher Course next week:
http://www.bcpa.org.uk/events/16--BCPA-Hib

Hope to see you there Phil

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