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morris

Does anyone like the new rules?

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Just "discovered" those thoughts of Jonathan Tagle, he posted em public on Monday on Facebook. Just had to copy em here as I like em very much down to the last letter!

JT:
It's a very sad state of affairs. I can't believe we are actually thinking about retiring distance records. Distance should be preserved... As the main discipline by which most competitors or even swoopers at their home DZs judge themselves and their peers. It's the easiest event for pilots to gauge their power and performance, and used quite regularly during the progression of up and coming canopy pilots. All this talk about changes to the rules is so that more venues can host swoop events. It's only come up because of the event in Cali and the limitations there. I feel that we should give venues the option to modify the rules to fit the venue by giving these "Option B" events to choose from, but we should not give up the events all together. We need to preserve the distance records and continue to break those records by pushing the envelope in technology and skill. This is the main event we're talking about... It's the event used for tie breaking... The single most longest distance. As for the straight dragging speed course. I think it should also be an Option B for venues that don't have the capacity to host tradition speed. PLEASE DON'T KILL THESE EVENTS! Let's keep all the options on the table. We can then determine a reasonable amount of time before the event to announce what will be hosted to give ample time to train those specific events.

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I've always thought that an non-xbraced 9-cell canopy class would be fun. Sort of like a "sport" class. That would really liven things up quite a bit. Put a wingloading cap on it, like nothing over 2.0 and see what happens. It could run the traditional 3 events, but they would probably have to be modified, since a 10mph head wind and it would shut down dragging 4 water gates to zones.

There would be a lot of possibilities for neat events.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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I'm am new at this competing and all. With that said I think the distance should be changed to the way flcpa ran there event this past month. I always thought swooping was dive your canopy at the ground plain it out and see how far you can go. With the rule that they are trying to change where's the ground? It's 20 or 30 feet below them. I think it's not swooping its canopy piloting yes but not swooping I know I'll prob get slammed for saying that.
Speed I'm not sure they should change. I like that as a competor I have to do something more then go in a straight line.
Jan comp was my first official comp all I had to do is pick a point and hit gates I used same point for all six jumps is that skill I don't think so at this level. Again just what I think. Having to do different courses would show skill and the ones that are overall skilled with their canopy would truly rise to the top.
So I like the rule change that you have to stay below the gates on distance ( true swooping in my opinion) I don't like that they took the carving course out for speed.

As far as records are concerned. Why is distance the only one being talked about. As it stands speed record will be retired too. all in all there will be new records to be broken so I dont see that its a good argument to keep rules the way they were. We can still go super far with the new rules and push the envelope in all categories. Again I am just a newbie and have no stakes in old rules or new rules just my 2 cents on the matter.
Whatever the rules are ill be at the next comp giving it my all.
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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I always thought swooping was dive your canopy at the ground plain it out and see how far you can go. With the rule that they are trying to change where's the ground? It's 20 or 30 feet below them. I think it's not swooping its canopy piloting yes but not swooping I know I'll prob get slammed for saying that.


Not slammed, just been told that before I started training pop-ups, I sounded just the way you do right now. Since I got into it, there´s now way back anymore, at least not for me. Being in that bodyposition and sailing along in the first floor, to me is unbeatable, the very best part of the very best disciplin skydiving has to offer...

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Being in that bodyposition and sailing along in the first floor, to me is unbeatable,

Doing the superman in the harness on the pop up was fun three years ago when there were one or two people doing it. I also thought it helped a tiny bit plus it was different and I was trying something new. But we all have seen world record distance runs with non of that body language (Wuzi Wagner, Jay, JT, GW) so i think we can agree that there is little benefit to doing the superman in the harness, if any.

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Being in that bodyposition and sailing along in the first floor, to me is unbeatable,

Doing the superman in the harness on the pop up was fun three years ago when there were one or two people doing it. I also thought it helped a tiny bit plus it was different and I was trying something new. But we all have seen world record distance runs with non of that body language (Wuzi Wagner, Jay, JT, GW) so i think we can agree that there is little benefit to doing the superman in the harness, if any.


Yes, we can. (regarding benefit)
But fun!
And first floor helps for sure (as long as your not fighting a headwind).

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Got to train distance for the first time today.

So far I like the rule change, and I like the new challenges it brings. At the moment I do NOT feel like it increases the likelihood of injury - quite the opposite in fact since we can't pop up the way we used to.

This, of course, is only an opinion based off a very limited amount of jumps. I think I'll have a better feel by the end of this week.

Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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As reigning champ of The Ranch Pond Swoop Meet 2011, my opinion might be a little biased. When I started swooping it was guys like Rickster Powell in Antigravity that I wanted to be like. I wanted to drag water and swoop obstacles. So when our little DZ meet turned to be the largest swoop meet in the world ( at the time, over ten years ago ) with 72 competitors and $21,000, I knew we had something. The late and great Bill Ottley, who used to judge the RPSN, said one year, "Don't let USPA get their hands on this, they'll F#%@* it all up. And he was right. I stopped swooping because it lost it's FUN and it got goofy, yeah GOOFY. It is not exciting to watch at all. Actually it's pretty freaking boring. Not The Ranch Pond Swoop meet, that shit is good times. I think it takes a more refined canopy pilot with finesse. Not words you would normally hear when talking about swoopers. And I'm not saying the current swoopers don't have it, I just don't think they can show it as well, like in a Pond Swoop Meet.

People worry about the safety factor and I can understand that. But when you are dragging water it is a different sight picture which is safer, I believe. Anyway, the new rules for Canopy Piloting I feel make it a better sport. The older rules were gay, that's all I'm saying.

If enough people wanted me to, I would organize and run a pond swoop meet. Yeah, that's right you heard me say it. I'll organize a meet but I'll need to get paid, a lot. Like a real lot ;-)

HOOOOOOOKIT!!!!
Kamuran "Sonic" Bayrasli
The Ranch PROshop
Buy Baby Buy!

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How can it feel safer when you have reduced your margin of error from 1.5 m to less than 0.5m? I am afraid to see what is going to happen when people are starting to push the limits with those conditions. I am not too worried about those who now consider distance as an accuracy event, however, there is no guarantee that everyone will do that.

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Why do we talk about 5 foot gates as of some mystical safety margin? Those gates were there to keep score- passed under the gate you in the money, above- you out. How else would you keep score objectively?

And who "slows" down before dipping into water? Personally, I want to go ballistic while dragging but just enough dip to keep me going instead of creating too much drag. Water swooping is where the fun is!

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Very simple. The 5 foot gates don't provide a "safety margin". If you think competitors aren't hitting the tip tops, and almost skimming the water 50 feet afterwards then you're mistaken.

The safety margin, IMO, come's from the fact that distance is no longer about who's willing to pop 35 feet in the air and come thundering in to the ground.

There's a lot of noise by people who haven't even tried the new rules yet (there are, of course some people who have and just don't like them)

Lastly, there have been a LOT of meets over the years that have been run with dragging rules at high speed (last big splash, various pst events, ranch pond meets, etc). Not a single competitor screamed safety then.......

Personally, I have no dog in this race. New rules, old rules, doesn't make a difference to me in that I will always fly as hard as I can in competition.

These are MY opinions.

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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"The safety margin, IMO, come's from the fact that distance is no longer about who's willing to pop 35 feet in the air and come thundering in to the ground. "

So why not just have the VE rule rather than the drag on entry? That is the component that is adding safety - why in the same stroke reduce safety with the drag?

The two changes are not congruent with the same goal = LOGIC FAIL IPC
"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

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So why not just have the VE rule rather than the drag on entry?



I dunno. I didn't write the rules, and had nothing whatsoever to do with the process. I suspect though that the answer lies in my response to the 2nd part of your statement below.

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why in the same stroke reduce safety with the drag?



Honestly, after throwing myself into distance for the last 2 days. I don't believe it does reduce safety in any way. In fact, I find myself forced to make a smoother more controller approach than when I power down on the gate.

Now, as far as I know speed rules are the same as they used to be (I *think* the new ones were rejected) so us competitors will still have plenty of opportunity to bomb at the gates :)
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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We are in the process of developing a swoop pond, this swoop pond will be built to IPC specifications.

The New Rules will hopefully allow us to do this with ease. We have a great location with great geography for a pond but the 372 metres required with the 'old' rules would make it much more expensive.

We have 350 metres to work with but we want 50 metres of water before the gates for safety.

Those that say they can't train because they have not got a pond... do as we are doing, make a club, find a friendly DZ owner (usually the hardest part) and apply for funding though public grants etc...

You can also use those grants to subsidise jump tickets for club members.

The new rules make life a lot easier for anyone wanting to develop a facility to hold events.

My own personal belief is that popping up 20 meters and thumping yourself on the deck 200 metres away is much less 'swooping' than staying below the bollards and actually swooping the ground.

Dubai last year saw 14 injuries in one distance round due to the 'old rules', and in accuracy there are seldom injuries. When there is even a slight head wind most people are putting as much power through the gates as they can... so the 'power event' point that I keep hearing is moot.

I am with Ian Bobo...

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My own personal belief is that popping up 20 meters and thumping yourself on the deck 200 metres away is much less 'swooping' than staying below the bollards and actually swooping the ground.

Dubai last year saw 14 injuries in one distance round due to the 'old rules', and in accuracy there are seldom injuries. When there is even a slight head wind most people are putting as much power through the gates as they can... so the 'power event' point that I keep hearing is moot.



I think most people agree about and like the new rules about not poping up. I think that rule is great! As you say, that's more swooping than the old rules and at the same time it prevents some injuries. 14 injuries of 101 competitors is not ok in my opinion. I don't know if all 14 injuries was because of popping up though, at least one was not popping up, but 7m/s downwind landings are fast and people can get hurt because of it.

Its the dragging foot on the entry gate that people object to. I don't agree with your ZA comparision, but that doesn't really matter.

Its great that the rules are changed to allow "more venues", but does it really do that? A pond is not cheap to build and neither the old nor new rules leaves any guarantees that it can host an IPC competition next year, because the rules still does not say how long the course should be, only how long it should be relative to the performance of the best pilots, when they fly at high altitude at maximum downwind...

What evidence is there that the new rules limit the distance enough? I heard some people have performed quite well with the new rules too.


Here are my suggestions:

Have the new VE rules. Most people think they are an improvement.

Remove the foot dragging, I still fail to see how it improves safety for less experienced people. Competitors didn't vote for it, they have voiced their opinion against it via petitions after the fact and via comments on the linked facebook page before the fact. The message is quite clear, most do not want it. Run non-IPC competitions and show pilots that it is more fun or safer first; make them want it instead of forcing it upon them.

Change the rules about the length of the course to a fixed length. THAT opens up new venues! That way one can know in advance that an IPC event can be hosted and not get a nasty surprise after a new record is set.

Add a new rule that makes it possible for a competition to have a lower limit on the windspeed if needed. If the course turns out to be too short, instead of invalidating the whole course, one can just limit the amount of downwind speed and still use it.

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Its the dragging foot on the entry gate that people object to. I don't agree with your ZA comparision, but that doesn't really matter.



The comparison isn't a good one because the OP of that was only thinking about rolling out with a max power turn into a competition limit head wind.

What is important to think about is a max power roll out for distance in a competition limit down wind. Lets say worst case scenario for this: 7m/s in the summer, in Longmont. The roll out ground speeds of the top quarter of competitors will be in the 90mph range. If you skip the pond at that speed, you are going to get hurt. If the angle is shallow enough, the competitor may be able to recover and fly the canopy out safely. if the angle is slightly steeper the competitor will skip out of the pond at an unusual attitude and will get hurt (since they will clear the water distance and crash into the ground well past the water line).

In a ZA event in competition limit downwinds, competitors aren't rolling out at max power, they're rolling out of their turn soft and well in front of the gates so they're able to put their foot in the water for the first gate in the 40-50mph range.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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The event has been tested with and without the water drag. Without the water drag pilots were still able to climb significantly because they were much tighter on the entry gate and were able to stay below the last gate with a lot of energy still left in the system, and still climb. With the added water drag it made it impossible to climb too high, regardless of power, and stay below the last gate.

I've got about 30 jumps now on the new rules (in strong head/down/crosswind conditions), and I can honestly say I felt no increased risk in safety.

The new rules significantly limited EVERYONE's distance at our last training camp. We'd have been going much, much farther otherwise.

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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But instead of having the VE on the gates over the water, you could place only one sensor at the 80m/90m mark and if you VE that sensor you still get the 80m/90m score instead of zero (and I don't think many people have enough power to efficiently pop up after 80m).

I see 4 problems with the dragging the entry gate rule:
- less training opportunities for people without a home swoop pond,
- beginners with a moderate to strong headwind will not be able to get out of water
- in downwind scenarios, the 20m margin before the entry gate is no longer enough imo,
- aggressive people (pushing the limits) will make for spectacular crashes, while less aggressive pilots will sacrifice some distance for added safety.

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Ian, you are not the ones I worry about, I worry about the people who scare me in their first ZA competitions. (Due to the angle of attach that they think they need to have to touch the water)
The fact that you feel safe doesn't interest me unless you can provide sustainable evidence that the rule changes wont make it more dangerous to the newcomers. How safe _you_ feel is irrelevant.

If the VE gates didn't make a difference, perhaps you could have thought about moving them further down the course?

Forcing people to touch water doesn't stop them from using the same approach to the gate as today. It is perfectly possible to use a steep approach, slam a foot in the water through the gate and then climb as today. It is not safe, and it will probably result in a lot of zeros, but once you nail it, you would be going as far as with the old rules. Then what did you achieve?

I suppose you dont mind the new rules as you can have people video your every landing, practice on a pond whenever you want, but keep in mind that this is not the case for most swoopers. Up until this change, it was still possible to practice 2 out of 3 events without a pond, but the changes makes that impossible. Do you really need that edge over the rest of the swoopers;)

rgds,
Stefan

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Hi Gerard,

First, I have to say that I believe we'll see modifications to these rules, just like we have in other events over the years. I don't believe these are "set in stone" for anything other than this year.

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But instead of having the VE on the gates over the water, you could place only one sensor at the 80m/90m mark and if you VE that sensor you still get the 80m/90m score instead of zero (and I don't think many people have enough power to efficiently pop up after 80m).



Not a bad idea. I'd post that on the IPC page if you haven't already.

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less training opportunities for people without a home swoop pond,



Tough subject. Many of us here in the US travel regularly to get swoop pond training. Even in Deland, where the majority of the team jumps, there is no water to train on. The closest is a 2 hr drive to Zhills.

*My opinion* is that if people are serious about training and competing then they'll travel. We have MANY visitors from the NY area in the Florida comps - some people even travel from Hawaii!!

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beginners with a moderate to strong headwind will not be able to get out of water



They would definitely get wet in zone accuracy then and get a zero.

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in downwind scenarios, the 20m margin before the entry gate is no longer enough imo,
- aggressive people (pushing the limits) will make for spectacular crashes, while less aggressive pilots will sacrifice some distance for added safety.



I'm answering these two together because I believe they go hand in hand. No rule (besides not jumping :)
Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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I worry about the people who scare me in their first ZA competitions. (Due to the angle of attach that they think they need to have to touch the water)



Me too. I worry about them regardless of the rules. However new competitors need to respect their limits and fly appropriately. That means spending appropriate time before a meet practicing and becoming familiar with what they need to do to compete safely.

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If the VE gates didn't make a difference, perhaps you could have thought about moving them further down the course?



Not a bad idea - suggest it to the IPC. I'm sure we're going to see some rule changes/revisions after running a few meets under these rules.

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Forcing people to touch water doesn't stop them from using the same approach to the gate as today.



Correct. See my comment about bad decision making.

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It is perfectly possible to use a steep approach, slam a foot in the water through the gate and then climb as today. It is not safe, and it will probably result in a lot of zeros, but once you nail it, you would be going as far as with the old rules.



Incorrect. I can only assume you've not done any runs on the new rules yet? If you try to do what you're proposing you WILL either lose so much energy trying to keep the wing from climbing OR vertical. The angles and energy (under today's parachutes) just don't allow this approach to work.

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I suppose you dont mind the new rules as you can have people video your every landing, practice on a pond whenever you want, but keep in mind that this is not the case for most swoopers. Up until this change, it was still possible to practice 2 out of 3 events without a pond, but the changes makes that impossible. Do you really need that edge over the rest of the swoopers



There are a lot of assumptions in that statement. Almost all of them wrong ;)

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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***But instead of having the VE on the gates over the water, you could place only one sensor at the 80m/90m mark and if you VE that sensor you still get the 80m/90m score instead of zero (and I don't think many people have enough power to efficiently pop up after 80m).



Not a bad idea. I'd post that on the IPC page if you haven't already.

I have, but you're the first person reacting to my proposal. Maybe I'll try to create a new post instead of just a comment.
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***beginners with a moderate to strong headwind will not be able to get out of water



They would definitely get wet in zone accuracy then and get a zero.

Disagree. Been there done that and you can still (sometimes) score if you decide to just avoid the VE for gate 1 and only touch water on 2 3 and 4 (or even only one of them if you think you're too short). But sometimes ending in the water is part of the game anyway ;-) it's also what makes it fun..

I look forward to giving these new rules at least a try at FLCPA#2! Then I'll know what I'm talking about (but being a newbie not so long ago I can tell this rule is not going to make it easier for them).
I hope you'll be there. First beer's on me.

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