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Gato

i Seek the Flame...

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Hey guys -

I'm fully prepared to take the flaming I will likely receive for what I'm about to post about. First, a little background info:

I'm 44, had my first jump in 2006, and was out for almost 2 seasons with a non-jumping related shoulder injury. I currently have 225 jumps, most of them on a '96 PD230. I've put around 50 jumps on Sabre2 190s and a Pilot 188, and a few on a Sabre1 190. (And not that it's relevant, but I'm also a Coach and Rigger.)

My jump numbers are relevant, I do realize, but let's say that for the sake of argument, I don't know shit. ;)

Last weekend, a friend loaned me a Stiletto 190 (2001 model) to try out. Before even considering jumping it/putting it on my rig, I had lengthy conversations with our DZO and the best canopy pilots at our DZ, a few of whom fly the Stiletto, as well. After hanging the canopy up and inspecting it, I attached the links to my rig, and had another rigger check my work.

I then made 2 hop and pops, one from 10k, because of the ceiling, and one from 13k. On the advise of a few of the pilots, I took 10 second delays on both, as they warned that subterminal deployments can be quite tricky. I have a Digitude Pro on a chest pillow that I wear for learning an unfamiliar canopy (or when the weather is weird...lol...hello, Midwest,) and I ran through basic maneuvers, noting the altitude loss for each, which I know is never a constant.

So the point of all of this is basically to give my impression of this particular wing, which I am incidentally loading at 1.26:1.

One thing that surprised me was how deep of a stroke the toggles had, but I suppose most people who have a STL load it heavier than I did this one, but they all talk about the flare being quite shallow, and half brakes at the ear-level. The bottom of this canopy's flare was easily at waist level, and I did spend some time edging it to the stall point.

The canopy does turn quite fast, but honestly, I didn't find it that much zippier in turns that the Sabre2 190. It certainly has a better glide. Counter-steering a toggle turn is interesting, and only seemed necessary if I was giving aggressive input. (Incidentally, my "hard deck" for ceasing aggressive flight under an unfamiliar parachute is 3k.)

I cannot say enough about the glide, though, especially using rear risers. And rear riser turns are just about the most fun thing I've felt under canopy...I can say that, right? I will say that I was very very surprised at the surf I got out of it on one particular jump...no wind, very hot day, and I was just flaring as I felt appropriate. Think I got 60 feet or so.

I fully realize I bit off a big chunk, moving from canopy to canopy as I did. I do understand why people here freak out when someone says, "I'll just get this now and fly it conservatively." That is not my goal. I don't have plans to be a swooper, but when I have the time and space, I like to fly the shit out of whatever I'm under, and fly a predictable landing pattern. I am not interested in HP landings, but I am interested in the HP maneuvers one may need down in the basement.

(I am not asking for approval for my decision to try out this wing. I have not bought this canopy, yet, because I'm not sure it's right for me. So far, I do like it better than the Sabre2 190 and the Pilot, if only for its landing characteristics.)

Having said all that, you may flame or advise as you please, Gentlemen and Ladies. :( :D :( :D


(edited for typos)
T.I.N.S.

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Interesting point about the wingloading comment you made: When Stiletto's first came out, the max wing loading from PD was 1.3-1. My first stiletto (around 97, and about as many jumps as you have) was still a rec. max of 1.3:1. I don't remember when it was, but the max loading was updated at some point after the high wingloading craze started to take off.

:)

Amazing how times change.

It's an old wing that was revolutionary when it came out, and is still sold today..twenty something years later. It has some really good stuff about it, and some things that are not in line with the current high performance flight styles/techniques. Yes, it will absolutely kill you if you are stupid, but so will the sabe2 or any other wing. The more taperd the wing, and the higher the wingloading, the lower your margin of error is and things happen that much faster. Things that might not be an emergency under another wing, can become an emergency in these situations (line twist for example). If you are going to fly it, know your risks, be careful, and respect the wing.

I believe this is a big boy sport, and you should be able to make your own decisions. It looks like you know the risks and what the general tribal advice is for downsizing and elliptical wings.

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You know, as long as thing go well, there's no problem, and a Stiletto is definitely one of the most fun canopies to fly.

But.

When things go bad, a Stiletto is not very forgiving, and that's putting it mildly. It banks and dives very easily and oversteers quite a bit (if you countersteer with the harness while in a turn, you won't notice this as much). So when the shit hits the fan, prepare for a shit *storm*, whereas, on a less aggressive canopy, it might be a gentle breeze with a pungent smell.

The problem is, at your level of relative inexperience, avoiding said shitstorm is more luck than skill. You might, then again you might not. For now, until you build more experience - say the 500 jumps PD recommended for the Stiletto when it first came out - it might be wise to keep more margin for error in your canopy, because there is less margin in your canopy piloting.

Of course, if you have mad skillz (tm) :P and there happens to be plenty of margin in your canopy piloting,
(1) you actually are more speshul than everybody else and
(2) you actually will never need margin for error in your canopy.

But I hope you have fun, and I hope you will never get that fan dirty. Just don't kid yourself, because you're not kidding me, even if you never break yourself. You are stacking the odds against yourself, regardless of the eventual actual outcome.

Johan.
I am. I think.

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A few points to consider -

The WL you'll be jumping at isn't too far outside the 'norm' for your jump numbers. At the same time, the majority of your jumps were a couple years ago, so currency isn't on your side.

The WL you'll be jumping at isn't too far outside of the 'norm' for your jump numbers. However, the model of canopy you're considering is.

So if you look at relevant factors in canopy seleciton, those being WL, canopy type, jump numbers and currency, you only have one working for your (WL) and three against you (the rest).

Let's also consider your non-skydiving related shoulder injury. Is this something that could return, or become aggrevated on a jump? The Stiletto is known for having very little inherent stability on the roll axis, that's why you have to stop the turns yourself and 'fly' it to make it go straight. This makes for a quick and fun canopy, but also makes for the worst possible canopy to land with a shoulder out of the socket or otherwise injured.

You're not a kid anymore. I started jumping when I was 18, and took some hard hits over the years. In my early days of jumping, I bounced back from those hits much faster than I do now, and I'm still a couple years younger than you. Even a minor injury could put out of jumping for another 2 years or maybe the rest of your life. Is that worth pushing the limits in terms of canopy selection?

I think the biggest factor in your decision should be your own misgivings. I made 10 or 12 jumps this weekend, shot some video, did some freeflying , swooped on a bunch of them, etc. I didn't feel the need to post before any of them outlining my plans because I was secure that what I was doing was safe and within my abilities.

You, on the other hand, have posted a lengthy write up listing all the reasons you think it's OK to jump the Stiletto, and openly admitting that people are going to flame you. It sounds like your shopping around for approval just to satisfy that little voice in the back of your head that keeps telling you it might not be a good idea.

It's been a tough year for open canopy incidents. The incidents forum will show that, and then just guess how many non-fatal injuries there were that didn't make it into the forum. Canopy selection and WL is proving to be a very important decision in terms of your health and welfare. Give it it's due consideration and good luck.

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44? that's was you name "granny"?
come on! order a spinletho 170!
:P

with "responsible" persons, some HnP and coaching, flying arround 1.6 can be very secure.

Remember Robin :|
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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A few points to consider -

The WL you'll be jumping at isn't too far outside the 'norm' for your jump numbers. At the same time, the majority of your jumps were a couple years ago, so currency isn't on your side.

The WL you'll be jumping at isn't too far outside of the 'norm' for your jump numbers. However, the model of canopy you're considering is.

So if you look at relevant factors in canopy seleciton, those being WL, canopy type, jump numbers and currency, you only have one working for your (WL) and three against you (the rest).

Let's also consider your non-skydiving related shoulder injury. Is this something that could return, or become aggrevated on a jump? The Stiletto is known for having very little inherent stability on the roll axis, that's why you have to stop the turns yourself and 'fly' it to make it go straight. This makes for a quick and fun canopy, but also makes for the worst possible canopy to land with a shoulder out of the socket or otherwise injured.

You're not a kid anymore. I started jumping when I was 18, and took some hard hits over the years. In my early days of jumping, I bounced back from those hits much faster than I do now, and I'm still a couple years younger than you. Even a minor injury could put out of jumping for another 2 years or maybe the rest of your life. Is that worth pushing the limits in terms of canopy selection?

I think the biggest factor in your decision should be your own misgivings. I made 10 or 12 jumps this weekend, shot some video, did some freeflying , swooped on a bunch of them, etc. I didn't feel the need to post before any of them outlining my plans because I was secure that what I was doing was safe and within my abilities.

You, on the other hand, have posted a lengthy write up listing all the reasons you think it's OK to jump the Stiletto, and openly admitting that people are going to flame you. It sounds like your shopping around for approval just to satisfy that little voice in the back of your head that keeps telling you it might not be a good idea.

It's been a tough year for open canopy incidents. The incidents forum will show that, and then just guess how many non-fatal injuries there were that didn't make it into the forum. Canopy selection and WL is proving to be a very important decision in terms of your health and welfare. Give it it's due consideration and good luck.



Hi Dave -

Just as a point of clarification, the majority of my jumps have been over the last 2 seasons. I was out almost all of 2007 and some of 2008.

You're absolutely right about not being able to bounce back quickly. I do try to stay active, and keep my muscle tone happening, and that in itself has helped with a lot of injury prevention. So far, the shoulder has been quite stable (knock on wood.)

And yes, you're also absolutely right about my own misgivings - and as I stated in my post, I'm NOT sure this canopy is right for me. Maybe I'm at one of those, "Save me from myself," stages, I don't know.

I do appreciate you taking the time to reply in a thoughtful way, and I want you to know I will take what you say into consideration. As you say, I'm not a kid anymore...and as such, I do know we have an amazing capacity to fool ourselves. I do not believe I am above that happening to me again.

Thanks. :)
T.I.N.S.

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You need to learn a really good flat turn to jump that canopy safely. The stiletto actually makes really nice flat turns, there is no reason to toggle it into the ground to avoid an obstacle. Feeling comfortable and in tune with your canopy is important, if this is the canopy for you then go for it but be sure to drill, drill and drill some more on life saving manouevers.
Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

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You need to learn a really good flat turn to jump that canopy safely. The stiletto actually makes really nice flat turns, there is no reason to toggle it into the ground to avoid an obstacle. Feeling comfortable and in tune with your canopy is important, if this is the canopy for you then go for it but be sure to drill, drill and drill some more on life saving maneuvers.



I hear ya - I usually run the maneuvers in Brian Germain's skill drills on any canopy I'm flying, and regularly make high-altitude hop & pops to work on this stuff. I only put 4 jumps on the canopy last weekend, but I did fly 3 of my landing patterns in partial brakes, doing my best to make flat 90s for turns onto base and final. You're right about the Stiletto, at least from what I've observed, it does flat turns really well.


(Edited for a typo.)
T.I.N.S.

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Not at this size and WL..

could you please give us, honestly, your background and experience on Stiletto's ? And your experience at that wingloading ?

(not saying you are completely wrong, just to know how valid your point should be taken)
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Oh my, a Stiletto 190 at 1.3, that's so hardcore!

You're going to die!

Same ol' shit..



What a fucking dick. Here's a guy trying to make an informed desicion, and that's the best you can come up with?

You don't fill out your profile, you never make any useful contribution to any discussion, and on top of it, you're belittling the OPs canopy choice and desire to be smart about what he's doing.

Rigless? More like brainless.

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Seems the one of the mods may have removed a post from this thread?

I think, perhaps arrogantly, that I was hoping the proportional size and performance differential would play in my favor. That's why the little voice in my head is conflicted, because I know that just because there's a guy next to me with 126 jumps with a Sabre2 135 loaded at 1.3:1, doesn't mean I should do the same thing. (Real guy, love him, but damn.)

This is may be another one of those paper-thin layers of dumbass that I have to peel away.
T.I.N.S.

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Also keep in mind that you can't compare how another jumper does under a given wing to how you might do. You have to use your own judgment and skills, and those don't really translate from person to person.
I know people with 1000 jumps who probably will never jump anything more aggressive than 1.1:1, and others that load double that just fine. Similar differences can be found across the jump number range, and wingloading range.
I know several folks who have been hurt because they downsized because their buddy who has similar experience downsized and "they did just fine".

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I think, perhaps arrogantly, that I was hoping the proportional size and performance differential would play in my favor. That's why the little voice in my head is conflicted, because I know that just because there's a guy next to me with 126 jumps with a Sabre2 135 loaded at 1.3:1, doesn't mean I should do the same thing. (Real guy, love him, but damn.)


The size does play in your favour. A 190 @ 1.26 isn't bad actually. But this is a Stiletto.

Your friend being differently stupid (a 135, any 135, at 126 jumps, damn :o) does not make a Stiletto suddenly OK for you.

You already know this, you write. Are you acting on it yet? :)
Johan.
I am. I think.

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Agreed.

On some level, I suppose I do think I'm skilled enough to handle this parachute. I consciously know that is not a good enough reason to own it.

I did my best to minimize as much risk as possible. I got advice and coaching from experienced instructors that I trust implicitly. I pack very carefully, including both my main and reserve. I was very conscious of bringing my legs together and staying symmetrical in the harness for deployment. When I'm under canopy, I try to do more than just collect data while monitoring altitude loss in various maneuvers - I try to feel and observe what the system is doing. I have taken a lot of time to work on canopy skills up to this point.

I had the opportunity to try the same canopy back when I had around 100 jumps, and was advised against it by some, encouraged by others. I ended up asking the DZO, "If your son was at my level with my skills, and he asked you about flying this canopy, what would you say?" He just shook his head and quietly said, "No. Because I have a vested interest in you walking, talking, and breathing. Same goes for you, but you can do whatever you want to do."

I thought my friend had sold the STL 190, but when I found out he still had it a couple of weeks ago, I went to the DZO and had another talk about it. It was a different conversation, but the bottom line was that we both felt it might be something worth trying. (And not purely for his entertainment....lol.)

Maybe I'm just unnecessarily trying to defend a poor decision.
T.I.N.S.

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Just know that it is more than doing the maneuvers and being able to fly it. Most people can land any given canopy in the best conditions.

You have to have the mindset and attitude to go along with the skills to not only keep you out of a bad situation...but more importantly when you find yourself in a bad situation and the shit hits the fan with seconds to act... are you going to become a grease spot, or are you going to keep it together and do the best with a bad situation? When you find yourself thinking "no way around it... this is about to suck." Do you panic and turn yourself into the ground, or do you take a deep breath and do everything you can to make it suck as little as possible and hope to walk away?

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