0
DocPop

Do Velocities "fly big"?

Recommended Posts

DocPop -

One thing to keep in mind.

The velo 90 will respond aggressively to harness input during opening. If you aren't careful it will spin up on ya. I also know some Velo's that don't like sub-terminal openings.

Get input from the S&TA and your local instructors and go have fun with the velo on the Tertiary rig.
Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks man.

Good points you raise there. I will be getting a full briefing before this jump and I won't be doing it until I get current on my Katana again after the winter!
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think you would probably have a really good time flying the canopy around, then chopping it to deploy your normal main. You MUST be symmetrical on opening. If not, you can go from zero to holy shit before you know what happens. Spinning line twists can render you unable to cutaway if you let it happen too much.

If you survive the opening, I bet you'll look up and be really surprised how small the canopy looks. Then you'll start to feel ok with the canopy...until you pop the brakes and the canopy goes into that controlled freefall called "full flight" that the Velo has.:D

This would not be "just another jump." It must be planned out and done with regards to your safety. Hobbled together cutaway rigs aren't to be used here. A true cutaway rig should be used. Especially with the forces that you'll be subject to if you have a malfunction.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Short answer.... No.

People claim that because they have a much more powerful flare than a non-crossbraced canopy.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Well, honestly, because I want to fly it. I also want to have a cutaway. I think there are some good learning opportunities from this jump.



Such a terrible idea..... There are plenty of opportunities for you to end up dead with this plan.

Quote

I realize that this is more risky than a regular skydive



Jumping a canopy that is above your skill set is more risky than a regular jump.

Jumping an intentional cutaway rig is more risky than a regular jump.

Add them together and you have a really bad idea.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote


Well, honestly, because I want to fly it. I also want to have a cutaway. I think there are some good learning opportunities from this jump.



Such a terrible idea..... There are plenty of opportunities for you to end up dead with this plan.

Quote

I realize that this is more risky than a regular skydive



Jumping a canopy that is above your skill set is more risky than a regular jump.

Jumping an intentional cutaway rig is more risky than a regular jump.

Add them together and you have a really bad idea.



+1 just my 2 cents. Also, what do you plan to learn from this? All, I can see happening is you getting the crazy idea to do this more and the false belief that you feel safe under the canopy.....where do you jump by the way? I ask because I do not wish to send my fellow jumper to a dz where instructors are saying this is ok and helping you with this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
doesnt upset me; i just think you're full of shit.

but what does upset me is that there are people on here that seem to be supportive of your idea, encouraging even. people known to be "canopy nazis"; but whatever floats your (big) boat..

remember: breathe, relax, smile; and dont die!

:|
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I have a intentional cutaway rig I can use and an old Velo 90 which the owner is happy for me to chop. Happy days!



What kind of rig is this? Every true 'intentional cutaway' rig I have seen, where it's set up for two mains + a reserve, was designed for canopies in the 200 sq ft range, so fairly low performance.

Keep in mind that a highly loaded X-braced canopy is pushing the limits of a standard rig in terms of possible cutaway performance, and harness input. Jumping a rig not designed for such a high wingloading, or with a mis-matched sized harness (which will effect your ability to control things with the harness) isn't a great idea.

Jumping a Velo isn't voodoo or magic, but like anything else in jumping, it's something you work your way up to. By the time you're ready to jump and land a Velo, you're ready to open and fly a Velo. Using a cutaway rig as a shortcut isn't the solution you think is it.

Doing an intentional cutaway in itself is a much more complicated jump than the average skydive. With no experience with intentional cutaways or the rig you'll be using, adding the way-too high performance canopy to that is just asking for trouble. Maybe if you did a dozen intentional cutaways with the rig, and had some time working with the system, you could think about a stunt like this.

To walk in off the street and make your first intentional cutaway, your first jump with that rig, and your first jump with an X-brace at that loading all on the same jump is just plain dumb. Talk about the chain of events leading up to the incident, there's the first three links right there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
looks like somebody posted coincidentally about the same question under a different username. really, must be coincidence! :S

good answer there: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4070974#4070974
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jacketsdb23, AggieDave, danielcroft, Ron, NextGenSkydiver and davelepka:

Thanks guys. I think this is a bad idea. I had thought that the real danger was the landing and that this would be a fun way to fly a Velo without the risk. From what you have said I can see that I was wrong. I'll ditch this idea and fly a Velo when it is an appropriate wing for me to be under.

I am sorry for wasting your time but please realize that your comments have made me appreciate that this was going to be a very risky endeavor.

The original thread was a legitimate question, but I am glad it got to this discussion.

virgin-burner:

Your comments are less than helpful and really have no place in this discussion.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

but what does upset me is that there are people on here that seem to be supportive of your idea, encouraging even. people known to be "canopy nazis"; but whatever floats your (big) boat..



Remembering back to when I had 200-500 jumps, doing this sort of jump on a Velo would have been a blast, and if people would have jumped my butt about it, I probably would have blown them off. If people took the time to say "yeah, that would be fun, but here are some really serious problem to think about" then I would have taken more time to think it through. What do you know, DocPop took some more time to think it through and sounds like he is making a good decision to not complete this jump.

What would you rather do, tell someone "no" or help give them the tools to make a good decision?
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Virgin Burner, go do one will ya. This forum has been quite interesting and Doc Pop has approached this matter correctly. Lets leave it at that please so we can discuss this without someone having a flame fest.
To quote Matt "I am not one of the canopy police, because you want to is a valid reason"

DocPop, whilst I agree so far with the course of this thread, I do also believe that what you desire to experience is not entirely out of the range of possibilities.
Firstly, I do not wish to validate your request at all. What you plan to do in one jump is a bad idea and you have come to the right conclusion.

However I would be interested to hear what the general consensus would be in order to make this happen? If at all possible?
What would it take and what would be a sensible plan to achieve this?
I mean, does it really boil down to experience?
Is this achievable at all? Can someone with 200 jumps handle this? What about 500 jumps?

First, see this video which will give you an idea of how things could pan out......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD9oy73c5Ns&feature=related

p.s. Don't flame me, this has been interesting and I'm in it for the discussion. It's been a long winter and talking about flying Velos is all I got at the mo!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i dont doubt it would be a blast, further up i posted a link to an answer that was posted very recently that seems to fit well in this thread. talking about tertiary rigs (?) and problems associated with those, with real-live anectotes of a testjumper. needs a cool-headed motherfucker to deal with them.

then mixing that up with a 90 velo.. mhm, you dont think that's a good idea either.

i'm not the poster-boy for what is considered a "safe" progression on here too, but even i think that katanas should be left alone until someone has something like 400 jumps minimum, and that's a dedicated canopy-pilot. then the dude comes up with his plan on flying a velo? my toe-nails are curling up..

where i jump, it's pretty much banged into your head from day one on, you're licensed, do what you want, just know what you are getting yourself into. and if you want to do something, i better tell you HOW to do it, because you will end up doing it anyway, and if you fuck up, i might feel bad for NOT having told you how to pull it off safely. i'm all for that.

but, again, flying a katana at 200 jumps, bad idea, continuing with a velo at that number of jumps, well, worse idea.

and to keep ranting, another relatively recent thread about back-risers on landing.. i was being told to leave those alone for a LONG time. not much you cant do with toggles only, but oh-so-many-more chances to end your day badly adding them. but hey, that's just what i was told..



@d100965: foxy looks like a fun bitch to play with, can i have one!? :P
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To VB,
that's not me by the way in the Foxy vid!
I have had to chop 2 Velos though, both with skyhook. But nothing anywhere near to Foxy!
If you want to talk about (unintentional) chops though speak to Brian Vacher, at last count he was on 23! :D

To DocProp,
Team Heat, a group of UK Army experienced canopy pilots, have done a lot of intentional Velo cutaways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FZ4XPvfcxs

My only claim to a bit of minor fame is that I once static lined a Velo 96 (in a size 200 student rig).
And I may possibly have been the first ever to do so....

That was fun!B|

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Thanks man.

Good points you raise there. I will be getting a full briefing before this jump and I won't be doing it until I get current on my Katana again after the winter!



To give you something to think about:
1. During opening a velocity can spin so hard and so fast that you can black-out. It has happened, okay, WL plays a role too in this game. But an old worn out Velo can give you interesting openings.

2. I did a hop and pop at 13000 ft with my Velo. I was the first to leave the plane and I landed before the tandems and some solojumpers. When I flew next to a light jumper on a 150. Me full flight, she spiralling, I was getting down faster.

Do not underestimate the power of those high performance canopies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i'm a big fan of icarus/nzaerosports..

i've had a "dealer problem", and when i called them guys up to clarify things with them directly, i wasnt halfway through telling my color-pattern and he knew my 2nd name (only gave my first name when i called). "you will have your canopy very soon!", and voilà, two weeks later the courier was at my door.. :)
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

However I would be interested to hear what the general consensus would be in order to make this happen? If at all possible?
What would it take and what would be a sensible plan to achieve this?
I mean, does it really boil down to experience?



Yes, it does. An intentional cutaway is a project in itself. Just doing one where the first canopy is not reall a 'part' of the jump takes an amount of worlk, pre-planning, focus, and generally will soak up most of your attention to do it right and make sure everything is taken care of. In truth, the first canopy usually plays very little role in these jumps because it's usually a junk canopy that nobody minds if it should get lost, stuck high in a tree, or burned up on the power lines.

Now picture a jumper trying to manage the intentional cutaway while looking forward to flying a tiny Velo for the first time. What are the chances that the cutaway portion of the jump is going to get the attention it deserves?

Beyond that, and as others have mentioned, this would be a very short ride for the OP. Figure that he needs to cutaway by 3000ft, so if he does a clear and pull from 13k, that's 10k ft of playtime. Let's forget that he needs to watch the spot, and assume that he can play with the canopy and spot himself for his cutaway at the same time.

More or less, he's looking at less than two mintues of working time with the Velo. Get open, get your stuff all set, 3 or 4 big turns, start setting up for the cutaway, end of the Velo ride. It's not even worth the trouble/risk.

Like I said above, if he wanted to do a number of jumps with that exact cutaway rig, and get some experience with the rig and those type of jumps, then maybe you could add in the new factor of testnig out a high-performance canopy. I suggested a dozen jumps, but that would be the bare minimum. In the end, it's really only 12 jumps, and that hardly makes you an expert at anything, but when you consider the time and work that goes into an intentional cutaway, it does represent a good deal of time working with the system and working on the jumps in general.

In the end, it's just a dumb idea. If you're intending to jump a canopy that cannot be landed, then the intentional cutaway is the way to go. If you're jumping a canopy that people everywhere are jumping and landing everyday, and the limitation is only your skills, just get the skills together, and don't get intentional cutaways involved.

It's similar to another 'idea' I've bumped into a couple times, and that's the up-and-coming jumper who gets the genius idea to wear weights for no other reason than to boost their WL. They don't need them in freefall, they plan to wear too much to even be useful in freefall, but since they're too new for downsize, they figure they can sling on 15 or 20 lbs, and pick up a point on the WL. Again, when the option of simply getting your skills together exists, take it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Once you fly x-brace there is no turning back.......

don't fly it unless you are ready to buy one.

as soon as you cut away and fly katana it is gonna feel like shit.

enjoy rest of the season with shitty flying katana.

you should just land it. they all slow down to zero at some point when you flair.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To add a little bit more detail to the discussion, the plan was to direct bag me out of the plane and then a couple of the instructors were going to follow me out and get some video under canopy and of the chop.

Here's the thing I think other inexperienced jumpers could learn from this:

The dangerous thing about this idea was that I didn't doubt I could do it. And I still think it is possible. However, I now know that there are far more risks than I had considered. I hate to admit that this project I was so excited about was a stupid idea - but that's exactly what I have to do.

I really appreciate the fact that you guys took the time to explain all the reasons WHY rather than just saying "You're a dumbass and you're gonna be a dead dumbass.". I really don't think that would have made me stop and think.

This might be the most important thing I have learned from dz.com.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

To add a little bit more detail to the discussion, the plan was to direct bag me out of the plane and then a couple of the instructors were going to follow me out and get some video under canopy and of the chop.



So you just added trying to get the canopy open two feet out of the door, traffic under canopy, and trying to coordinate the cutaway with the video guy.

Direct bag just means that the canopy is opening right now, like it or not. Stable exit or no, canopy is coming out. At least with a real cutaway rig, you could get out, get stable, take a deep breath and deploy.

Traffic and video concerns are easy to understand. If you're going to get good video, the needs to be close (I have filmed several intentional cutaways), and in order to get close, he needs your cooperation. Even if you don't have to fly to him, you do have to 'relax' at some point to let him close in on you. He can't get into his slot while you're still 'trying out' the canopy.

All kidding aside, maybe think twice about some of the advice the 'experts' at your DZ are steering you towards. Not everyone with jumps or time in the sport has good judgement, or is able to make good recomendations for other jumpers. Sometimes an enthusuastic new guy is all takes to get them exicted about things, and sometimes if you hang out at the DZ all the time, people forget your actual jump numbers or general experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Thanks guys. I think this is a bad idea. I had thought that the real danger was the landing and that this would be a fun way to fly a Velo without the risk. From what you have said I can see that I was wrong. I'll ditch this idea and fly a Velo when it is an appropriate wing for me to be under



Given the choice between you jumping and landing a Velo 90 and this cutaway idea.... I'd consider landing the Velo the LESS risky of the two.

Once you start jumping again.... Why not go to a PD event and try to demo a V120?

Quote

However, I now know that there are far more risks than I had considered. I hate to admit that this project I was so excited about was a stupid idea - but that's exactly what I have to do.



Well said..... I had the same revelation once... Till an exp jumper told me that I would most likely die. OK, twice.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0