flyingstrauss 0 #1 February 3, 2011 A question about canopy size and wing loading. Since I'm awfully lightweighted, with a 135ft canopy my wing load would be 1.2, which I suppose is fine for getting into learning canopy flying. But what about that "start from the 190ft and progress slowly" thing? I mean, it would be a little docile, right? I made a few jumps on a 170ft Vengeance, it felt fast to me, but it was probably because it's elliptical. And there was no other 190 or 170ft square or semi elliptical canopy for me to try it. So, I ask you, what would be a smart thing to do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #2 February 3, 2011 I'd leave Vengeance and other elliptical canopies alone. Try to find some nice conditions if you try something new. A canopy control course can help you to fly better what you have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyingstrauss 0 #3 February 3, 2011 I left it alone, it was only a few jumps Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #4 February 3, 2011 Than what is the question? Its your leap of faith. You have to know if you are ready for that or not. I broke my ankle with a Navigator 220 ~ WL 1.0. It is not your canopy, its the pilot.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rem 0 #5 February 3, 2011 Quote...190, 170, 150, or 135ft canopy...with a range as large, if you still are questions, that you're not ready! so, stay on a 260! or take a look for an used velocity 79...niques tout, chies d'dans... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyingstrauss 0 #6 February 3, 2011 I get what you mean by "it's your leap of faith". Fair answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fly67 0 #7 February 4, 2011 You know the drill...read: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47 http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf There is also the recommendation to not both downsize and change canopy model... only one variable at a time. According to Brian's chart the smallest you should consider is a 150 (since your exit weight is about 160lbs). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ozzy13 0 #8 February 5, 2011 Quote So, I ask you, what would be a smart thing to do? The smart thing to do is ask instructors at your Drop Zone what you should do. They are the ones watching you every day and can give you advice based on what they see. Internet is never a good place to be asking these types of questions. There are way to many variables to give you a educated answer. Canopy course is always a plus. It will help you understand canopy flight much better.Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jtiflyer 0 #9 February 5, 2011 elliptical doesn't mean fast. Fast turns maybe, how tapered and the angle of attack will determine downward speed. A stilleto is elliptical but has a very flat glide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #10 February 6, 2011 Quote Quote So, I ask you, what would be a smart thing to do? The smart thing to do is ask instructors at your Drop Zone what you should do. They are the ones watching you every day and can give you advice based on what they see. Nope. It doesn't take much to get an instructor rating and that's mostly freefall skills. I know (knew?) at least three dead instructors who killed themselves (plus one tandem student) under canopy and another one who came close because she didn't manage to learn good piloting skills during her first few thousand jumps. Plus a few more who I also like but are only living because they're bouncy and/or lucky. Even if they're competent, your local skydiving instructors are probably only seeing you under the best possible conditions with low winds, bright light, and a wide open landing area. You're sizing your canopy for the worst possible conditions at dusk with a low turn to avoid unseen power lines to a down-wind landing on asphalt. Consider the sunset load where the cute chicks flash the pilot for extra altitude, some one in your group gets hypoxic and gets their foot caught on the seatbelt so you take forever to climb out, and you have a long spot. Things seem to happen much faster, you may not stay flat enough in the turn to avoid a painful impact, and you won't get away with running out a landing where you didn't flare all the way. A better starting point is second and third-hand advice off the internet originating from people like Brian Germain with 10,000+ skydives who've been around long enough to see such situations and make a career out of hanging out at different dropzones teaching canopy flight. When local instructors tell you to be more conservative because of unique situations (altitude, a tight landing area, you aren't a good driver in the air...) that's good advice. When local instructors tell some one to be more aggressive that's probably inexperience; although since the advice recipient lacks the experience to pass judgement and will be the one making friends with a nice orthopedic surgeon if things go wrong (I like mine, but would have preferred to meet him in a social setting) they'd do well to go with the more conservative advice. At 100-200 jumps a year it doesn't take long for most people to downsize without exceeding Brian Germain's recommendations to the point where they don't want to go any faster. There isn't a good reason to do things in fewer jumps. Quote Canopy course is always a plus. It will help you understand canopy flight much better. Right. You _really_ need to be able to make flat turns down to ground level and land down/cross-wind plus down hill and up hill. It's fun, and you'll be using those skills unless you're an odd engineer somewhat afraid of skydiving who only jumps solo with a large parachute (I was surprised to meet him and learn that guy really exists). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mmm_peanuts 0 #11 February 6, 2011 +1 You can't trust just anyone, even instructors. I know 2-3 AFF instructors and even examiners who have made radical canopy decisions/ progressions, leading to near death injuries through piss-poor piloting. When it comes to canopy flight, know who your talking to. Responsible instructors will make reasonable recommendations, but not all. Best reference is professional canopy pilots/course directors, who are able to give you direct feedback on observed jumps. If you are ever questioning you canopy selection, the answer is that you are simply not ready for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #12 February 6, 2011 Quote A question about canopy size and wing loading. Since I'm awfully lightweighted, with a 135ft canopy my wing load would be 1.2, which I suppose is fine for getting into learning canopy flying. But what about that "start from the 190ft and progress slowly" thing? I mean, it would be a little docile, right? I made a few jumps on a 170ft Vengeance, it felt fast to me, but it was probably because it's elliptical. And there was no other 190 or 170ft square or semi elliptical canopy for me to try it. So, I ask you, what would be a smart thing to do? I wouldn't jump a fully elliptical canopy or downsize faster than Brian Germain's chart allows, and would do all of the things on Bill von Novak's at the previous size before jumping a smaller one. It's not a big deal to land any parachute straight ahead into a large wide open landing area. When things go wrong it gets interesting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mircan 0 #13 February 6, 2011 Quote When local instructors tell some one to be more aggressive that's probably inexperience; although since the advice recipient lacks the experience to pass judgement and will be the one making friends with a nice orthopedic surgeon if things go wrong (I like mine, but would have preferred to meet him in a social setting) they'd do well to go with the more conservative advice. +1 View from a local standpoint... There was one incident some time ago, at a DZ which we could consider local to the OP. The instructor told the student (demanded) to be more aggressive pilot. It resulted in low turn and shattered spine. The instructor had 1000+ jumps and enough years of experience but lacked the knowledge on "modern" canopy flying. Canopy was square (not even semi-elliptical) and in 150sqft range. I`ll not name names, but the OP should really consider where he is getting his advice. There is not single trained/qualified HP canopy instructor in this country. (*classic accuracy excepted)dudeist skydiver #42 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ozzy13 0 #14 February 6, 2011 Quote Quote Quote So, I ask you, what would be a smart thing to do? The smart thing to do is ask instructors at your Drop Zone what you should do. They are the ones watching you every day and can give you advice based on what they see. Nope. It doesn't take much to get an instructor rating and that's mostly freefall skills. I know (knew?) at least three dead instructors who killed themselves (plus one tandem student) under canopy and another one who came close because she didn't manage to learn good piloting skills during her first few thousand jumps. Plus a few more who I also like but are only living because they're bouncy and/or lucky. Even if they're competent, your local skydiving instructors are probably only seeing you under the best possible conditions with low winds, bright light, and a wide open landing area. You're sizing your canopy for the worst possible conditions at dusk with a low turn to avoid unseen power lines to a down-wind landing on asphalt. Consider the sunset load where the cute chicks flash the pilot for extra altitude, some one in your group gets hypoxic and gets their foot caught on the seatbelt so you take forever to climb out, and you have a long spot. Things seem to happen much faster, you may not stay flat enough in the turn to avoid a painful impact, and you won't get away with running out a landing where you didn't flare all the way. A better starting point is second and third-hand advice off the internet originating from people like Brian Germain with 10,000+ skydives who've been around long enough to see such situations and make a career out of hanging out at different dropzones teaching canopy flight. When local instructors tell you to be more conservative because of unique situations (altitude, a tight landing area, you aren't a good driver in the air...) that's good advice. When local instructors tell some one to be more aggressive that's probably inexperience; although since the advice recipient lacks the experience to pass judgement and will be the one making friends with a nice orthopedic surgeon if things go wrong (I like mine, but would have preferred to meet him in a social setting) they'd do well to go with the more conservative advice. At 100-200 jumps a year it doesn't take long for most people to downsize without exceeding Brian Germain's recommendations to the point where they don't want to go any faster. There isn't a good reason to do things in fewer jumps. Quote Canopy course is always a plus. It will help you understand canopy flight much better. Right. You _really_ need to be able to make flat turns down to ground level and land down/cross-wind plus down hill and up hill. It's fun, and you'll be using those skills unless you're an odd engineer somewhat afraid of skydiving who only jumps solo with a large parachute (I was surprised to meet him and learn that guy really exists). Ok I'm sorry I forgot I was on the internet. You should ask the people that are experienced at your DZ. They are the ones seeing you fly your canopy and would be able to help you move in the right direction. I love when people ask advice about swooping and canopy flight on here. Better yet I love that people giving advice without know jumpers entire situation. I just don't think its to smart/safe. Just my opinion and you know how that goes. Some smell more then othersNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ozzy13 0 #15 February 6, 2011 Quote A better starting point is second and third-hand advice off the internet I hope you are kiddingNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites danielcroft 2 #16 February 7, 2011 QuoteYou should ask the people that are experienced at your DZ. They are the ones seeing you fly your canopy and would be able to help you move in the right direction. ^ that I asked my instructors because as long as they're not retarded (they aren't), they probably know better than you. Ask the experienced people around your DZ and see what the consensus is in theory and then find someone who would be willing to watch your landings and give you some feedback (who is not retarded). It's not always easy to get someone to do that but it is worthwhile. Jerry's point is that finding someone local is important. Up until recently on dz.com, the mantra was that people asking these questions should be directed to their instructor who would be able to offer advice or point you in the right direction for said advice but apparently that's not ok now either. I still talk to my instructors from time to time but I also talk to the S&TA and experienced friends, pretty much anyone who'll listen for more than 2 minutes gets canopy questions. I'd say take Drew's post as saying that you can't rely solely on one person's opinion because, they may appear to be knowledgable when in fact they're not. Consensus is key, discard the outliers (get a 120 Katana! / stay on that Navigator 280) and try to get specific advice on your actual landings rather than just theory. Canopy course is good value and do some high clear and pulls to learn your canopy more, especially when you're demoing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DocPop 1 #17 February 14, 2011 Quote A question about canopy size and wing loading. Since I'm awfully lightweighted, with a 135ft canopy my wing load would be 1.2, which I suppose is fine for getting into learning canopy flying. But what about that "start from the 190ft and progress slowly" thing? I mean, it would be a little docile, right? I made a few jumps on a 170ft Vengeance, it felt fast to me, but it was probably because it's elliptical. And there was no other 190 or 170ft square or semi elliptical canopy for me to try it. So, I ask you, what would be a smart thing to do? What do you want your canopy to do? What are you trying to learn? Canopy piloting covers a range of things including swooping, accuracy, CRW and even just learning to be a safer, more heads-up pilot. You can learn the basics of most, if not all, of these at low wingloadings. I think the best way to know if you are ready to downsize is to perform exercises such as those in BillVon's checklist, and when you are confident performing all the drills you are probably OK to downsize and start learning how to do them all over again on the faster canopy. IMO, therefore, the best approach would be to start at a conservative sized wing and work though the checklist on each before downsizing. This might only take 10-20 jumps on each wing, but eventually you will find a canopy which has enough performance for you. If you felt that the 170 was fast, you might want to start this progression with a 200 or a 210. Additionally, canopy coaching and dedicated, high-pull canopy drill jumps will accelerate your learning rate."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
phoenixlpr 0 #2 February 3, 2011 I'd leave Vengeance and other elliptical canopies alone. Try to find some nice conditions if you try something new. A canopy control course can help you to fly better what you have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingstrauss 0 #3 February 3, 2011 I left it alone, it was only a few jumps Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #4 February 3, 2011 Than what is the question? Its your leap of faith. You have to know if you are ready for that or not. I broke my ankle with a Navigator 220 ~ WL 1.0. It is not your canopy, its the pilot.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rem 0 #5 February 3, 2011 Quote...190, 170, 150, or 135ft canopy...with a range as large, if you still are questions, that you're not ready! so, stay on a 260! or take a look for an used velocity 79...niques tout, chies d'dans... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingstrauss 0 #6 February 3, 2011 I get what you mean by "it's your leap of faith". Fair answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fly67 0 #7 February 4, 2011 You know the drill...read: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47 http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf There is also the recommendation to not both downsize and change canopy model... only one variable at a time. According to Brian's chart the smallest you should consider is a 150 (since your exit weight is about 160lbs). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #8 February 5, 2011 Quote So, I ask you, what would be a smart thing to do? The smart thing to do is ask instructors at your Drop Zone what you should do. They are the ones watching you every day and can give you advice based on what they see. Internet is never a good place to be asking these types of questions. There are way to many variables to give you a educated answer. Canopy course is always a plus. It will help you understand canopy flight much better.Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtiflyer 0 #9 February 5, 2011 elliptical doesn't mean fast. Fast turns maybe, how tapered and the angle of attack will determine downward speed. A stilleto is elliptical but has a very flat glide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #10 February 6, 2011 Quote Quote So, I ask you, what would be a smart thing to do? The smart thing to do is ask instructors at your Drop Zone what you should do. They are the ones watching you every day and can give you advice based on what they see. Nope. It doesn't take much to get an instructor rating and that's mostly freefall skills. I know (knew?) at least three dead instructors who killed themselves (plus one tandem student) under canopy and another one who came close because she didn't manage to learn good piloting skills during her first few thousand jumps. Plus a few more who I also like but are only living because they're bouncy and/or lucky. Even if they're competent, your local skydiving instructors are probably only seeing you under the best possible conditions with low winds, bright light, and a wide open landing area. You're sizing your canopy for the worst possible conditions at dusk with a low turn to avoid unseen power lines to a down-wind landing on asphalt. Consider the sunset load where the cute chicks flash the pilot for extra altitude, some one in your group gets hypoxic and gets their foot caught on the seatbelt so you take forever to climb out, and you have a long spot. Things seem to happen much faster, you may not stay flat enough in the turn to avoid a painful impact, and you won't get away with running out a landing where you didn't flare all the way. A better starting point is second and third-hand advice off the internet originating from people like Brian Germain with 10,000+ skydives who've been around long enough to see such situations and make a career out of hanging out at different dropzones teaching canopy flight. When local instructors tell you to be more conservative because of unique situations (altitude, a tight landing area, you aren't a good driver in the air...) that's good advice. When local instructors tell some one to be more aggressive that's probably inexperience; although since the advice recipient lacks the experience to pass judgement and will be the one making friends with a nice orthopedic surgeon if things go wrong (I like mine, but would have preferred to meet him in a social setting) they'd do well to go with the more conservative advice. At 100-200 jumps a year it doesn't take long for most people to downsize without exceeding Brian Germain's recommendations to the point where they don't want to go any faster. There isn't a good reason to do things in fewer jumps. Quote Canopy course is always a plus. It will help you understand canopy flight much better. Right. You _really_ need to be able to make flat turns down to ground level and land down/cross-wind plus down hill and up hill. It's fun, and you'll be using those skills unless you're an odd engineer somewhat afraid of skydiving who only jumps solo with a large parachute (I was surprised to meet him and learn that guy really exists). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mmm_peanuts 0 #11 February 6, 2011 +1 You can't trust just anyone, even instructors. I know 2-3 AFF instructors and even examiners who have made radical canopy decisions/ progressions, leading to near death injuries through piss-poor piloting. When it comes to canopy flight, know who your talking to. Responsible instructors will make reasonable recommendations, but not all. Best reference is professional canopy pilots/course directors, who are able to give you direct feedback on observed jumps. If you are ever questioning you canopy selection, the answer is that you are simply not ready for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #12 February 6, 2011 Quote A question about canopy size and wing loading. Since I'm awfully lightweighted, with a 135ft canopy my wing load would be 1.2, which I suppose is fine for getting into learning canopy flying. But what about that "start from the 190ft and progress slowly" thing? I mean, it would be a little docile, right? I made a few jumps on a 170ft Vengeance, it felt fast to me, but it was probably because it's elliptical. And there was no other 190 or 170ft square or semi elliptical canopy for me to try it. So, I ask you, what would be a smart thing to do? I wouldn't jump a fully elliptical canopy or downsize faster than Brian Germain's chart allows, and would do all of the things on Bill von Novak's at the previous size before jumping a smaller one. It's not a big deal to land any parachute straight ahead into a large wide open landing area. When things go wrong it gets interesting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mircan 0 #13 February 6, 2011 Quote When local instructors tell some one to be more aggressive that's probably inexperience; although since the advice recipient lacks the experience to pass judgement and will be the one making friends with a nice orthopedic surgeon if things go wrong (I like mine, but would have preferred to meet him in a social setting) they'd do well to go with the more conservative advice. +1 View from a local standpoint... There was one incident some time ago, at a DZ which we could consider local to the OP. The instructor told the student (demanded) to be more aggressive pilot. It resulted in low turn and shattered spine. The instructor had 1000+ jumps and enough years of experience but lacked the knowledge on "modern" canopy flying. Canopy was square (not even semi-elliptical) and in 150sqft range. I`ll not name names, but the OP should really consider where he is getting his advice. There is not single trained/qualified HP canopy instructor in this country. (*classic accuracy excepted)dudeist skydiver #42 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #14 February 6, 2011 Quote Quote Quote So, I ask you, what would be a smart thing to do? The smart thing to do is ask instructors at your Drop Zone what you should do. They are the ones watching you every day and can give you advice based on what they see. Nope. It doesn't take much to get an instructor rating and that's mostly freefall skills. I know (knew?) at least three dead instructors who killed themselves (plus one tandem student) under canopy and another one who came close because she didn't manage to learn good piloting skills during her first few thousand jumps. Plus a few more who I also like but are only living because they're bouncy and/or lucky. Even if they're competent, your local skydiving instructors are probably only seeing you under the best possible conditions with low winds, bright light, and a wide open landing area. You're sizing your canopy for the worst possible conditions at dusk with a low turn to avoid unseen power lines to a down-wind landing on asphalt. Consider the sunset load where the cute chicks flash the pilot for extra altitude, some one in your group gets hypoxic and gets their foot caught on the seatbelt so you take forever to climb out, and you have a long spot. Things seem to happen much faster, you may not stay flat enough in the turn to avoid a painful impact, and you won't get away with running out a landing where you didn't flare all the way. A better starting point is second and third-hand advice off the internet originating from people like Brian Germain with 10,000+ skydives who've been around long enough to see such situations and make a career out of hanging out at different dropzones teaching canopy flight. When local instructors tell you to be more conservative because of unique situations (altitude, a tight landing area, you aren't a good driver in the air...) that's good advice. When local instructors tell some one to be more aggressive that's probably inexperience; although since the advice recipient lacks the experience to pass judgement and will be the one making friends with a nice orthopedic surgeon if things go wrong (I like mine, but would have preferred to meet him in a social setting) they'd do well to go with the more conservative advice. At 100-200 jumps a year it doesn't take long for most people to downsize without exceeding Brian Germain's recommendations to the point where they don't want to go any faster. There isn't a good reason to do things in fewer jumps. Quote Canopy course is always a plus. It will help you understand canopy flight much better. Right. You _really_ need to be able to make flat turns down to ground level and land down/cross-wind plus down hill and up hill. It's fun, and you'll be using those skills unless you're an odd engineer somewhat afraid of skydiving who only jumps solo with a large parachute (I was surprised to meet him and learn that guy really exists). Ok I'm sorry I forgot I was on the internet. You should ask the people that are experienced at your DZ. They are the ones seeing you fly your canopy and would be able to help you move in the right direction. I love when people ask advice about swooping and canopy flight on here. Better yet I love that people giving advice without know jumpers entire situation. I just don't think its to smart/safe. Just my opinion and you know how that goes. Some smell more then othersNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #15 February 6, 2011 Quote A better starting point is second and third-hand advice off the internet I hope you are kiddingNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #16 February 7, 2011 QuoteYou should ask the people that are experienced at your DZ. They are the ones seeing you fly your canopy and would be able to help you move in the right direction. ^ that I asked my instructors because as long as they're not retarded (they aren't), they probably know better than you. Ask the experienced people around your DZ and see what the consensus is in theory and then find someone who would be willing to watch your landings and give you some feedback (who is not retarded). It's not always easy to get someone to do that but it is worthwhile. Jerry's point is that finding someone local is important. Up until recently on dz.com, the mantra was that people asking these questions should be directed to their instructor who would be able to offer advice or point you in the right direction for said advice but apparently that's not ok now either. I still talk to my instructors from time to time but I also talk to the S&TA and experienced friends, pretty much anyone who'll listen for more than 2 minutes gets canopy questions. I'd say take Drew's post as saying that you can't rely solely on one person's opinion because, they may appear to be knowledgable when in fact they're not. Consensus is key, discard the outliers (get a 120 Katana! / stay on that Navigator 280) and try to get specific advice on your actual landings rather than just theory. Canopy course is good value and do some high clear and pulls to learn your canopy more, especially when you're demoing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #17 February 14, 2011 Quote A question about canopy size and wing loading. Since I'm awfully lightweighted, with a 135ft canopy my wing load would be 1.2, which I suppose is fine for getting into learning canopy flying. But what about that "start from the 190ft and progress slowly" thing? I mean, it would be a little docile, right? I made a few jumps on a 170ft Vengeance, it felt fast to me, but it was probably because it's elliptical. And there was no other 190 or 170ft square or semi elliptical canopy for me to try it. So, I ask you, what would be a smart thing to do? What do you want your canopy to do? What are you trying to learn? Canopy piloting covers a range of things including swooping, accuracy, CRW and even just learning to be a safer, more heads-up pilot. You can learn the basics of most, if not all, of these at low wingloadings. I think the best way to know if you are ready to downsize is to perform exercises such as those in BillVon's checklist, and when you are confident performing all the drills you are probably OK to downsize and start learning how to do them all over again on the faster canopy. IMO, therefore, the best approach would be to start at a conservative sized wing and work though the checklist on each before downsizing. This might only take 10-20 jumps on each wing, but eventually you will find a canopy which has enough performance for you. If you felt that the 170 was fast, you might want to start this progression with a 200 or a 210. Additionally, canopy coaching and dedicated, high-pull canopy drill jumps will accelerate your learning rate."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
