Transitioning from rears to toggles during swoop

[DocPop 1]

I am looking for some guidance on when to transition off rears and on to brakes on landing.

The first few times I tried it I obviously rode the rears too long and bled too much speed because I had very little flare left when I went to my brakes.

Is there a way to "know" when to transition, or is it just a feel/experience thing?

Thanks.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[buff 0]

What kind of approach/turn?

One course said not even worth using rears until 270+ but I've used them on 90s and 180s. It's a feel thing I suppose. I started by just landing using rears on a straight in and get comfortable with that.

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

[DocPop 1]

I have been doing 180s and 90s.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[superstu 0]

The more speed you have the longer you will be able to effectively stay on rears in my opinion. that being said its very much a feel thing and its a good thing to practice both holding them too long and also transitioning earlier than you think you should so you can fine tune what you like.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[DocPop 1]

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The more speed you have the longer you will be able to effectively stay on rears in my opinion. that being said its very much a feel thing and its a good thing to practice both holding them too long and also transitioning earlier than you think you should so you can fine tune what you like.

Thanks Stu - I thought that might be the answer. I have no problem landing only on the rears, but I want to develop the right "feel" early on in my attempts.

I need another canopy course, I think!

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[AggieDave 6]

Have you recently spent any time up top working on your rear riser stuff? Like, what the pressure feels like pushing out of the dive, rear riser stalls and the like?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[DocPop 1]

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Have you recently spent any time up top working on your rear riser stuff? Like, what the pressure feels like pushing out of the dive, rear riser stalls and the like?

Yes, all this season I have been pulling high (>8,000') on about 1 jump in every 5 to do exactly that sort of thing. I am comfortable using the rears and know where the stall point is etc. They seem very powerful and predictable on the Katana.

I jump in the Midwest so I haven't jumped for about 2 months now so it is more of a theoretical question for me until next season. I will be jumping in S Africa in Feb, but I'll be staying off the more advanced stuff because it will be re-currency time and my first time landing at that sort of altitude.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[apogee77 0]

The "Mid-west" excuse doesn't work. Made three jumps today , high of 12F.

Will

[craigbey 0]

It can be tough to find a DZ that's open this time of year in our area. And even if you do, you may only be able to get in a few jumps when the weather opens up.

Some could probably get away with it, but I would definitely need more jumps than that each week to remain current enough to continue swooping.

[davelepka 4]

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it is more of a theoretical question for me until next season.

It seems to me like you get about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way to the rear riser stall before you need to transition, but it all depends on the speed you start with and how you apply the inputs.

We all know that the faster you go, the more effective your control inputs will be, so a small input early on in the swoop will produce a bigger result than that same amount of input later on in the swoop. With this in mind, you can see that the further you go, you have to increase both the amount of input and the rate you apply that input to maintain level flight.

We also know that the more input you add, the more drag you induce, which is not good for going far. The closer you get to the rear riser stall, you reach a point where you are inducing more drag flying rears at a given speed than you would be on toggles at that same speed. Once you get to that point, you've gone too far.

All of the technincal mumbo jumbo aside, you can really feel the full range of rear riser flight if you just fly them to the stall several jumps in a row. The nature of the rear riser stall is that once you feel it start to break, you can release the risers and drop your hands down to about 3/4 brakes and lose less than a foot of altitude. It's a small enough loss that if you fly the rears just high enough that you have to reach down to drag a toe in the grass, then you tucking your feet up to your ass will give you enough room to make the post-stall transition and not hit the ground.

Of course, you might fuck it up and stall it too deep and just hit the ground. You might also blow the transition and hit the ground that way. The good news is that you flew the rears to a stall, and you shouldn't be going all the fast, the bad news is that you end up hitting the ground. Nobody ever said swooping was safe.

Anyhow, by flying the rears through the full range to include a stall, you can feel where the canopy beings to sink out, and it starts to really take some input to keep it going. At the beginning, the risers are 'alive', and produce a lot of result for a little input. Somewhere past halfway to the stall, they start to die off, and you can sort of tell that you're fighting a losing battle.

Another down side to flying the rears too far, in addition to all the extra drag you induce, is that you get into the toggles on the slow side as well. Just like the risers 'die' toward the end of their usefulness, so do the toggles. If you fly the risers so far that you have to really dig into them to keep the canopy going, you'll hit the toggles so slow that all you can do is dump them to 'full flaps' and shut it down. If you get to the toggles earlier, you'll hit them when they still have some life left, and you get a little boost before you have to dump full toggles and end the whole thing.

[DocPop 1]

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Anyhow, by flying the rears through the full range to include a stall, you can feel where the canopy beings to sink out, and it starts to really take some input to keep it going. At the beginning, the risers are 'alive', and produce a lot of result for a little input. Somewhere past halfway to the stall, they start to die off, and you can sort of tell that you're fighting a losing battle.

Another down side to flying the rears too far, in addition to all the extra drag you induce, is that you get into the toggles on the slow side as well. Just like the risers 'die' toward the end of their usefulness, so do the toggles. If you fly the risers so far that you have to really dig into them to keep the canopy going, you'll hit the toggles so slow that all you can do is dump them to 'full flaps' and shut it down. If you get to the toggles earlier, you'll hit them when they still have some life left, and you get a little boost before you have to dump full toggles and end the whole thing.

Dave - thanks for a really useful reply. A good mix of "technical mumbo jumbo" and "feel"!

The first paragraph above really clicked with me and I am excited to go and play around feeling for that point of diminishing return.

The second paragraph was exactly what I was trying to describe when I said I knew I'd gone too far on the rears and should have transitioned earlier, but again you put it in a way that really struck a chord with me.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[HALO1 0]

Dave – I’ll second that… Good break down. Nice to read constructive and applicable info on the forums instead of the typical back and forth.

Don't be sexist… Broads hate that.

[mircan 0]

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Dave – I’ll second that… Good break down. Nice to read constructive and applicable info on the forums instead of the typical back and forth.

+2

dudeist skydiver #42

[gaz511 0]

+3 that, really good explaination. I t was once explained to me that for distance don't be afraid to get on to toggles before you completely melt the rear risers. It all about using the best performance from both control surfaces. I've just downsized to a 104 and I'm currently working out how long i should be on rears before transitioning to get the longest swoop, it's early days but its very different from my last canopy, i'm about to change my risers for longer ones which will no doubt change everything yet again