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DebaucheroRdrgz

Recovery Arcs on intermediate canopies.

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Seems to me that your more close minded than anyone else that has posted in this thread. We were having a nice discussion about the topic at hand until you came in and started running your mouth. I will admit that originally I let you get under my skin and for that I am in the wrong.

But what I don't understand is why you feel as if your entitled to the right to talk to anyone on here regardless of experience as if they are a shit bag for not wanting to put up with your attitude, and as if you are a sage fountain of wisdom.

Serving in the Marine Corps has taught me to wear my big boy pants, and shut my mouth when I'm in the wrong. It has also taught me to stand up for myself, and for others when they are being disrespected/ wronged without cause.

I think we can all agree that this thread is dead thanks to you and also to a large part to me letting you bother me. And I think we can also agree that you wouldn't be so cavalier without the internet to hide you. You as well as I know that if you tried to talk to someone like that in person you'd be missing a few teeth in a hurry.

All I'm saying is take your own advice and don't be too big or proud, and don't pride yourself on your "pile of shit" delivery. To people requesting advice that type of delivery makes them immediately regard the source as suspect and not much better than the tone with witch it was delivered.

Flame away if you wish, but I'm done with this thread and would ask anyone out there interested in keeping this forum going to post a new thread with a fresh topic.

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We were having a nice discussion about the topic at hand until you came in and started running your mouth



Running my mouth? That's a stretch at best. Here's my first post to this thread, verbatim -

"Are you really jumping a Stiletto 135 at 140 jumps? If so, who the hell sold you a Stiletto 135 when you had less than 140 jumps?"

If you want to talk about canopy control (hence the name of the forum), then your past and current experience on what model and size canopies you've jumped is certainly relevant, and on topic.

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But what I don't understand is why you feel as if your entitled to the right to talk to anyone on here regardless of experience as if they are a shit bag for not wanting to put up with your attitude, and as if you are a sage fountain of wisdom.



Again, I asked a valid question based on spending my entire adult life as a skyidver, and having 4500+ high performance landings. You were the one who got up in arms, became immediately and overly defensive.

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I think we can all agree that this thread is dead thanks to you and also to a large part to me letting you bother me. And I think we can also agree that you wouldn't be so cavalier without the internet to hide you.



This thread has become more productive since my post. Before hand it was a repeating of various canopies and their classification. A search of the forums would have turned up all of that info. Since I came to the thread, relevant and new information and viewpoints on safety and canopy control have been raised. I'd call that an upgrade.

I can assure you, and anyone who has ever met me would agree, that I am 100% the same person over the internet, the telephone, via the mail, and in person.

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All I'm saying is take your own advice and don't be too big or proud,



This is where you can't see the forest from the trees. You don't make as long as I have, or through as many jumps as I have, if you don't listen and learn. I've worked very hard to get where I am, and learn what I've learned.

None of that has anything to do with calling a duck, a duck. It's not a stretch of the imagination to say it's a bad idea to be jumping a Stiletto 135 with 140 jumps. Just to put in perspective, I have 3000+ jumps on different sizes of Stiletto and I know what I'm talking about.

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I'm done with this thread



How many times are going to say that?

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I can assure you, and anyone who has ever met me would agree, that I am 100% the same person over the internet, the telephone, via the mail, and in person.



Only difference in real life is Dave is crankier. :ph34r:

Honestly the delivery is exactly as it should be to someone that might be over their head and don't realize it. Playing buddy buddy and trying to gently persuade someone of their bad decisions has proven not to work time after time. If It did one of my friends would possibly still be here jumping but instead he got in over his head due to one person telling him exactly what he wanted to hear and hooked in right in front of me.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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There are much better wings you could be under right now versus a Stiletto and at least at the start of this thread this is what we were talking about. It is possible that you can safely fly the Stiletto (it all depends on the choices you make up there). But when you look at the big picture it has a short recovery arc and is less than ideal to be learning on. There are much better canopies for you to be on out there right now. Personally I think you could learn a whole lot more from something like a Sabre2 (or something comparable to the Sabre2).

We are all different, we come from different backgrounds and have different personalities. Because of this we all have different risk tolerance levels. Most people who did get to a certain established high performance level of swooping did not get there without taking some sort of risk and many of us (not all) have had to deal with our own personal egos at some point in time. But if you want to be a high performance canopy pilot, realize that there are no short cuts. It takes hundreds if not thousands of jumps and those jumps need to be dedicated towards canopy control.

Seek coaching, talk to your locals (keep in mind unless you are jumping at a DZ with a reputation for good competition canopy pilots your locals may not be as knowledgeable as you may think they are) and don't be afraid to dial it back at times. The margin for error in swooping is very small and it can happen to anyone of us. But chances of it happening to the lesser experienced bold person is much higher than a seasoned current canopy pilot who did not take short cuts and who dedicated jumps towards canopy piloting.

Swooping rocks .... but it is not a safe activity.


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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Serving in the Marine Corps has taught me



I'm going to try to explain to you in a way that maybe you can understand. I don't know if you're out of the Marines, or still in, and I don't know if you put any time in the Middle East, but let's try this anyway.

Imagine if you will, you're serving at a base and the problem at this base is that the south side faces some high terrain that is perfect for snipers to hide in. It's so perfect that more of your buddies have been killed by snipers from the south than have been killed in actual battle.

Now picture a new recruit, fresh out of base camp shows up to report for duty. Soon after that, you notice him near the south wall without his helmet or body armor. What do you, as the experinced Marine do? You tell that Marine to stay away from the south wall, and if has to be there, to be in full combat armor.

Imagine your surprise when the new recruit says to you -

"I like to take risks from time to time. As dangerous as you may think people like me are, I have never had any problems by the south wall. I can't be too dangerous. Go knit a sweater somewhere ya big Sally"

That's almost word for word your response to my initial quesiton, which if you really read it squarely places the blame for your (what I believe to be very poor) canopy choice on whoever sold you that thing.

You realize that the situations are virtually the same, right? The majority of fatal incidents over the past decade have been under open, properly functioning parachutes. Everything worked fine, except the pilot. See for yourself -

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/fatalities/search.cgi?fatal_category=Landing;nh=1

At least a half dozen of those were guys just like you, who got the forums and got into a pissing match with guys just like me (and sometimes actually me), and that's where they ended up. At least three or four of them were jumping the exact same canopy as you, and one did it under a 190 Stiletto, the biggest one they make.

That list, by the way, doesn't include the 20, 30, or 50 guys who didn't die, but ended up spending the rest of their lives in a wheelchair, or the better part of a year in a hospital bed waiting for both of their legs, or their pelvis, or their spine to heal, and let's face it, most of the time those things never really heal.

If you want to risk your life and your health above and beyond the risk of just making a jump in general, that's your choice. For the sake of your family and those close to you, I sure as hell am going to make sure you understand the risk you are taking, and that you truely are making an informed decision.

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:)
I'm glad to see you both have toned down. In the end, I hope this was helpful to everyone :)
It's easy to lose context in text, or emotion, or read into emotion. It's a tricky medium.

That said, we can all think about delivery of responses in this forum, regardless of the point we're trying to make.

Thanks for the contributions, everyone.

Blues
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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Can you point me in the right direction?:$:ph34r::ph34r::ph34r::ph34r::ph34r::D:D:D




I hear pool therapy is good for the bones so I'm looking. I'll let you know when I find them Randy.

Just make sure you have the blow up pool ready on the deck:)
It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

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was wondering where you would put the atair radical?



i jump a radical 95. it is a great canopy with good opening, good for wingsuiting and for swooping.
compared to my velo84 dive about 1/3 less.
However in my opinion is better than a katana, but i have maybe 10 jumps on a katana 105 and about 700 on a radical 95

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I didn't jump Katana, but I hear it is very similar.
Openings (hop & pop) are very fast. Openings from terminal are slow 900-1000 ft. (2 stage opening) :| You can control opening direction using leg position.
It is trimmed steap, so if you are far a way from DZ on opening you must fly with toggles on 40%. Also on turns it eats a lot of altitude, so you must learn how to do flat turn. It is very light pressure on fronts, and higher pressure on back risers. It dives hard on front riser turn. When I switch to back risers I usualy spread back risers.
It has a tons of flare power.B|

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Thanks for making a relavant post. On any other forum Dave's behavior would not be acceptable. Hijacking a thread and then chastising an anonymous poster, would get you booted from any other internet forum. Whether you are right or wrong the dialog ruins any interesting conversation about canopies. In fact this entire forum is ruined by posters that interrogate everyone and therefore prevent most valid discussion about any flight characteristics. Usually moderators prevent forums from heading down this path. Sadly do dz.com the moderators are participating instead of helping this issue. Too bad really.

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A brief history about DZ.com and how it evolved to what you have here and have seen in this thread. I say this having been on DZ.com for a decade, first with the old style forums, then on these forums with the reboot in 2001.

Back then there was an attempt to simply openly discuss the canopies of the day. Then we've started seeing a correlation between those asking questions about canopies and canopy flight well beyond their stated jump numbers and the incident reports.

I watched this play out as I was growing up in the sport. As I was pushing my own limits and also trying to ask those same questions and then I started getting similar responses.

Those same people chastising me on the internet I found wanted to help me in person, as much as they can. I can fully understand why, now that I have built experience. Dropzone.com had become the place to come to when all the canopy pilots at your own dropzone have told you that you no. We've seen hundreds of young jumpers (in experience, not necessarily age) come hunting for justification for their choices. Choices that they were chastised for at their own dropzone.

Those are also the same people we see in the incident reports with life altering injuries or ended up dead.

I am an avid canopy pilot, I am a competitive swooper and I am a canopy coach. This is something I am very passionate about; however, the internet really isn't the appropriate place to learn complex and advanced canopy flight.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Thanks for making a relavant post. On any other forum Dave's behavior would not be acceptable.



How many other interent forums have members go out and get themselves killed because they chose not to follow the advice offered on the forum?

PA removed - Ian. Come back when you have a clue, or never, I'm cool with either one.

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Thanks for the information jerolim, it does sound like a Katana from what I've read & been told, I've never flown a Katana though. I had been thinking about a Nitro(n) but from this thread it seems that the recovery arc is a little short. In a couple of years/300-400 jumps I think I'll be looking at an XF2.

Davelepka - LOL! :D

ElyJs - I haven't been in the sport all that long but I can definitely corroborate the behavior that these guys are talking about. Newer jumpers trying to get a yes from anonymous sources for the choice that they've already decided to make. I'm downsizing right now, I'm not asking the internet about it because I've already talked to the people who have been helping me at length. Talking about it on the internet would be redundant. I've spoken to the two people who pay the most attention to my canopy flight and watch most of my landings as well as my S&TA. If people local to you aren't willing to say "yes" asking the internet is stupid.

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We've seen hundreds of young jumpers (in experience, not necessarily age) come hunting for justification for their choices. Choices that they were chastised for at their own dropzone.

Those are also the same people we see in the incident reports with life altering injuries or ended up dead.



I understand what you are saying and I agree to some part, but:

The way I understood the OP´s post was that he was merely seeking info on different canopies. Based on that info he may then make the right or wrong decisions.

I didnt see any "seeking for justification" or anything like that.

I did however notice how some people attacked him merely based on his profile, without ever even seeing him fly his canopy.


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the internet really isn't the appropriate place to learn complex and advanced canopy flight.



I think internet is a great place to learn any theoretical information. Any practical learning is a different thing. IMO the OP´s question was theoretical and I dont see a reason why this kind of questions couldnt be discussed here. Actually I think the info here is even more objective than 1on1 info at the DZ which is always very subjective information..

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