RDS is there any point right now?

[aykay 0]

Correct me if Im wrong but you use an RDS to give the canopy better flight characteristics and aerodynamics which in turn gets the canopy to fly faster and dive more.

Would you say using an RDS gives an improvement in performance similar to using a canopy say half a size smaller? Arent these results similar to just downsizing?

Im not advocating downsizing just for these gains I am just wondering if there is any point in using one until you get to the smallest wing you want to fly for comp.

I found plenty of RDS threads but nothing that addresses this question.

Thoughts?

[rhys 0]

Surface area = lift = drag.

There is a very debatable window of what is best to use. and it depends on the type of canopy also.

Taking the deployment system off whatever size you jump will reduce the parasitic drag, so it will be an advantage, what ever size you jump.

That is if you are competing.

that is the way I see it anyway.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[aykay 0]

Not sure if you get what im getting at.

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Taking the deployment system off whatever size you jump will reduce the parasitic drag, so it will be an advantage, what ever size you jump.

Thats what I was saying. What exactly is the advantage? Canopy flies faster, dives more? Are these not some similar characteristics to downsizing?

So is there any point to using one before you are at your competiition wing size?

[rhys 0]

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Thats what I was saying. What exactly is the advantage? Canopy flies faster, dives more? Are these not some similar characteristics to downsizing? So is there any point to using one before you are at your competiition wing size?

Unless you are competing there is no point.

I have used a removable slider for camera work but kept the D bag and P/C on as normal. You will be surprised at how 'free' it feels to not have a slider on.

I am currently competing in my first competition ! I didn't start using a full RDS untill I was training for this competition, I owned one for my fist JVX because i intended on competing but sold it without ever fully attaching it, there was no point in running the full RDS for landing after a camera or fun jump, it is too much of a pain in the ass.

in comp however it may be the difference between getting wet or not, or scoring or not!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[morris 0]

Hope you´re doing great?!

Downseizing: More speed, more dive, less lift.
RDS: More speed, more dive, same lift.

[djmarvin 2]

Downsizing is flying a different canopy. RDS is cleaning up the aerodynamic presence of a canopy. Similar, but not the same end result. Who is this aykay guy anyhow ;) and don't forget the cough

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[dqpacker 7]

I heard aykay is the best Aussie Swoopper to ever work in texas.

[djmarvin 2]

I heard he is the best Bert (of Bert and Ernie) inpersonator EVER

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[raymod2 1]

Put a non-collapsible pilot chute on your canopy and try to swoop with it. It will be very obvious that it is fighting you during your dive and you will have a tendency to roll out earlier than you wanted or expected. In fact, you will probably feel that it royally screwed up your swoop. It is more than just parasitic drag. It is actually pulling on the top of your canopy, distorting it and frustrating your attempts to configure a low angle of attack.

The same thing occurs with a collapsible pilot chute but to a lesser degree and it doesn't become noticeable until you start generating high speeds during your dive.

[aykay 0]

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Hope you´re doing great?!

Downseizing: More speed, more dive, less lift.
RDS: More speed, more dive, same lift.

Hey mate,

Im back in Oz now.

Thats what I was looking for. I knew downsizing wouldnt be exactly the same but just wanted to see the main differences.

[rhys 0]

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RDS: More speed, more dive, same lift.

more speed = more lift

less drag = more lift

less drag = more peed = more lift...

how can the lift be the same?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[aykay 0]

think he meant more.

[morris 0]

I just tried to keep it as simple as possible.
Of course the higher speed (created by using an RDS or by whatever) will result in more lift.
By posting "less lift" (if it comes to downseizing) I was talking about the smaller surface area of the smaller wing, creating less lift at the same given speed.
By posting "same lift" (if it comes to using an RDS) I was talking about the same amount of lift at a given (not higher) speed created by the same surface area of the same wing... (as you didn´t downseize, you just added an RDS)...

[Calvin19 0]

we are flying kites on strings, the simple "more lift/less lift/drag" statements mean very little.

RDS removes parasite drag from the fulcrum. allowing the fulcrum (airfoil) to fly at lower angles of attack (and thus farther ahead of the load[pilot]) and move the vector of "lift" to be more ahead of the "drag" vector.

[crazydiver 0]

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we are flying kites on strings, the simple "more lift/less lift/drag" statements mean very little.

RDS removes parasite drag from the fulcrum. allowing the fulcrum (airfoil) to fly at lower angles of attack (and thus farther ahead of the load[pilot]) and move the vector of "lift" to be more ahead of the "drag" vector.

I would argue that the RDS is not removing drag from the fulcrum since the slider is down near the jumper (the load). This would actually increase the angle of attack since the drag would be taken away from the jumper and not from the airfoil.

A collapsible pilot chute also reduces drag, but removes the drag from the fulcrum (airfoil) and decreases the angle of attack.

Cheers,
Travis

[raymod2 1]

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I would argue that the RDS is not removing drag from the fulcrum since the slider is down near the jumper...

@crazydiver: you are aware that RDS stands for "removable deployment system"? It is not the same as "removable slider". The primary benefit to an RDS is that it allows you to remove the pilot chute and D-bag from the top of the canopy.

[crazydiver 0]

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I would argue that the RDS is not removing drag from the fulcrum since the slider is down near the jumper...

@crazydiver: you are aware that RDS stands for "removable deployment system"? It is not the same as "removable slider". The primary benefit to an RDS is that it allows you to remove the pilot chute and D-bag from the top of the canopy.

Woops...twas early. :) I think I read the comment about how "freeing" the feeling of having the RDS was and had just the slider portion in my head. Nevermind. :)

Cheers,
Travis

[IMGR2 0]

I thought it was profound but I was told this following statement by a very good friend and a very respectable ex-swooper.

"UNTIL the top three swoopers at a competition are being measured by inches instead of feet and 100ths of a second instead of full seconds then the use of RDS systems are really not separating the gold, silver and bronze positions."

Take that as you want but after watching a many swoop competitions I will have to agree. I do jump a removable slider solely for the reason I really like it NOT being there.

[rhys 0]

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"UNTIL the top three swoopers at a competition are being measured by inches instead of feet and 100ths of a second instead of full seconds then the use of RDS systems are really not separating the gold, silver and bronze positions."

thanks for the laugh, first;

FAI is french, and the freanch along with 95% (or so) of the world use the metric system so metres or millimetres would be used, not inches. you are talking about world chanpionships right?

second; when you pull your deployment system in and you feel the drag it is producing, try to tell me it will not make a difference n the speed rounds when the scores are down to the thousanths of a second?

Why do you think olympic runners shave thier legs?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[aykay 0]

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I am just wondering if there is any point in using one until you get to the smallest wing you want to fly for comp.

So there are a couple of opinions here now.

In a word- yes or no?

[ianmdrennan 2]

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"UNTIL the top three swoopers at a competition are being measured by inches instead of feet and 100ths of a second instead of full seconds then the use of RDS systems are really not separating the gold, silver and bronze positions."

They, and more, are.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[piisfish 135]

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thanks for the laugh, first;

FAI is french, and the freanch along with 95% (or so) of the world use the metric system

Why do you think olympic runners shave thier legs?

FAI as it names indicates pretty clearly, is INTERNATIONAL

why do runners shave their legs ? easier to massage in cremes and stuff, and also easier to clean a wound/rash etc than on furry legs

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[AggieDave 6]

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So there are a couple of opinions here now.

In a word- yes or no?

Yes, buy it. You're to the point now that you will notice a positive change in how the canopy flies. When doing "real" skydiving and you have the PC on top of the canopy, you will enjoy being able to take the slider off.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[BMFin 0]

How big of a risk do you see the removable slider in terminal deployments ?

What I mean is that one malfunction there could be fatal...

[AggieDave 6]

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How big of a risk do you see the removable slider in terminal deployments ?

What I mean is that one malfunction there could be fatal...

Just the slider or the full RDS?

Some guys take their full RDS to terminal all the time. I don't, I don't like how my canopy opens (and I don't like taking the lineset I have to terminal with my exit weight).

With just the slider?

People do that every day, all day long. It increases the wear on the slider, but with a well built RDS it hasn't shown to be a problem for a lot of people.

I think Scott Robert's design and PD's design (yeah, I know), to be some of the best built out there, but that's MY opinion and others will have their favorite.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."