shropshire 0 #26 December 19, 2009 Cheers mate (but nor are my Paragliders - they have loads of material, at low wing loading, high aspect ratios etc.. to enjoy being tossed around in crap air - never a nice feeling ) I'd like to try a Spring sometime tho... It's all learning (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #27 December 19, 2009 QuoteWhat is the best way to measure the Recovery Arc for a given canopy.... Use a digital visual altimeter with descent rate indication, eg. Neptune. Check usual descent rate, it should be 3-8 m/s. Do some turn which you can repeat quite well, eg. 180 front riser turn. Start counting by sendond after you let the canopy recover untill your descent rate gets back to normal. Than you can get the recovery time of your canopy, for that turn and for your load. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreggB 0 #28 December 20, 2009 So what is the best way for an experienced skydiver to learn how to ground launch and fly something like a Bobcat? Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #29 December 20, 2009 Cheers mate, I'll give it a go (I dont have a Neptune but will try my Paragliding Vario (climb/sink/altidude) meter). All the best (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #30 December 20, 2009 If you ask me you rather take a paragliding or ground lunching course. Define experienced skydiver! Not all disciplines help you survive a GL wing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #31 December 20, 2009 Quote If you ask me you rather take a paragliding or ground lunching course. Define experienced skydiver! Not all disciplines help you survive a GL wing. I'd 2nd that. I took a Speed Riding (on skis) course a couple of years ago - From a PG & Sky Dive background (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreggB 0 #32 December 20, 2009 about 3,000 skydives most under a stiletto 135, jumped a 107. then a vengance 107 before taking a multiyear break. A couple hundred BASE jumps. Most jumps were made in the 90's. Was AFF/TM JM. Haven't jumped much in the last 9 years. If taking a PG course is the right way to go any recommendations for an instructor in the Northeast? Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #33 December 21, 2009 QuoteSo what is the best way for an experienced skydiver to learn how to ground launch and fly something like a Bobcat? Thanks I do some informal instruction here in Boulder, Co. note I do not have a paraglider instructor rating, and do not give speed flying ratings, (mainly because they don't exist for the most part). A few of my students have been flying with me the last few weeks. the flying is easy, obviously. just learning weather and wind and how to pick sites and most importantly the safe way to launch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #34 December 21, 2009 Quoteabout 3,000 skydives most under a stiletto 135, jumped a 107. then a vengance 107 before taking a multiyear break. A couple hundred BASE jumps. Most jumps were made in the 90's. Was AFF/TM JM. Haven't jumped much in the last 9 years. If taking a PG course is the right way to go any recommendations for an instructor in the Northeast? Thanks PG is for sure the safest way. sorry, did not see this post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreggB 0 #35 December 21, 2009 Thanks. I'll look into local PG courses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #36 December 21, 2009 Sorry that I can't help (I'm in Europe) - but I see that Calvin did . All the best and I hope that you enjoy it as much as I do. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LetsGoOutside 0 #37 December 22, 2009 QuoteQuoteA Stiletto has a relatively flat trim. flat trim is great, but more I want fast dive recovery. not the same thingTrue, but a flat trim usually means a faster recovery. There are other factors, of course, but trim is a big one. Yeah, Stilettos flatten out pretty quickly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohanW 0 #38 December 23, 2009 Quote Quote Glide angle should not change with wingload. in a perfect aerodynamic world, yes. but it does change. induced drag and lift increase exponentially with speed, but so does parasite drag. When you get to the point of overloading the canopy, you'd notice the change. Barring that, it should be minimally noticeable between adjacent sizes, if at all. Quote Quote The question in my mind remains, why do you want a flat glide, and what do you consider flat? I consider flat to be the 10/1 glide I can get out of some of the gliders I fly. of course I'll consider something less for a freefall designed parachute. Now we're getting somewhere. AFAIK, parachutes have glide ratios on the order of 3/1. That means you'll have difficulty finding something to your liking. The Crossfire has the flattest glide I know, but has a long recovery arc. If you are prepared to retrim a Stiletto to glide flatter (possibly to the point of it not having enough drive left - it has the factory trim for a reason), you are likely not going to be satisfied with any skydiving wing. Let's face it, the aspect ratio and ellipticalness (?) can be much higher on a wing that does not have to open in freefall - a skydiving wing is always going to be less efficient than a groundlaunched wing. There is a reason ARs (in skydiving) vary between 2 and 3 or thereabouts. In short, what you want would open in a spin every time. Quote what I want is something that flies like my bullet 12m paraglider but is designed to be opened a few thousand times after freefall. I have jumped my bullet and i LOVE it but it was built like a paraglider and does not handle the deployment loads well. So how were the openings? If they were anywhere near predictable, get the manufacturer to build you one in ZP (and HMA or something lines, and with lots of reinforcing tape, and, and .. before you know it, you'll be on the phone with Brian Germain or John LeBlanc or someone); the openings can be adjusted with a slider, bag, nose &c. but be prepared for the performance hit you are going to take because of increased skin and line drag. Well, get a quote first. It'd be expensive, probably fruitless (Parachutes de France also had a project I believe - never happened either), but if you don't try, you'll never know, will you?Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreggB 0 #39 December 23, 2009 Early 90's there was an article in Skydiving or Parachutist about someone that had a hybrid PG/parachute built. And did a little deploy-> soaring. I think there was some harebrained scheme to jump and soar across Canada. I recall it didn't work well. Of course stuff has gotten alot better since so I don't know what could be built now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calvin19 0 #40 December 23, 2009 I spend 90% of my flying time footlaunching paragliders, from 8m to 38m. (90 to 400 ft^2) aspect ratios from 2.5/1 to 8/1 of course I know I will not get much more than 3/1 LD out of a skydive canopy, I was just hoping to find something built for skydiving that I could have as much fun with after deployment as I do with a 12m bullet. I have come to think that a stilletto 135 should be perfect. I can wingsuit with it, and still fly fairly well. I like to snap roll the hell out of canopies a lot, but I also like that I can do a 180 from less than 200' and a roll from 100. (not in a stilletto, obviously, but getting close). I have not owned a skydive rig in 3 years, so I want to be sure. openings were fine. crisp and on heading out the door. (way sub terminal) I have also jumped mid 20s square meter paragliders with awesome results. those are very VERY complicated to deploy. I believe the other poster was talking about my man Jimmy Hall, pioneering deployable paragliders about a decade ago. he did a bunch of soaring in the islands after deploying and paved the way for my projects. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohanW 0 #41 December 23, 2009 With your wingload and experience, wingsuiting a Stiletto 135 is not ideal (it never is), but it can be done. You do have access to cheap repacks, right? Not having experience with paragliding, what is a snap roll and what is a roll? A wingsuit will not exactly give you a subterminal opening, so I still doubt deploying a paraglider wing in freefall would be a good idea, frankly. But if it's worth it to you, go for it. Don't think we're going to find anything better suited to your requirements. Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fab777 0 #42 December 23, 2009 QuoteI have also jumped mid 20s square meter paragliders with awesome results. those are very VERY complicated to deploy. When you mention "jumping" a speed wing or a paraglider, do you mean D-bagging it of a non moving airship, or skydive it? Or maybe rollovers... Would you elaborate on this please? Fabien BASE#944 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calvin19 0 #43 December 23, 2009 my wingsuit experience is too low for a 135? how so? ~120 wingsuit skydives with anything from a saber 170 to a vengeance 120, and 100 or so WS BASE jumps. snap roll/ roll are pretty much the same thing. a roll is pretty much flipping the parachute or glider around the direction of flight, very hard to do clean in a paraglider, but a speed glider it is pretty easy. I have done them in Saber 150s, you just need a ton of entry speed. (no weight shift, just a precise fast and deep brake input that 'rolls' the glider underneath and around the pilot,) I would NEVER try to deploy a paraglider from a wingsuit. I just need a canopy for skydiving that I don't have to do a special deployment method every time I use it. (IE a regular skydive rig) my speed glider deployments have all been with a slider and on a bullet 12 'trash bagged'. I built a thin modified PG harness with a cutaway system in it that I wear under a skydive rig. My paraglider deployments have all been from a 'Dr Bill' (note; Dr not 'Mr') and without any mod to the glider. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calvin19 0 #44 December 23, 2009 I have rolled over paragliders but not speed gliders. I have done 'jumps' with my fly frame on a speed glider off a few exit points, but no 'deployments' of a speed glider other than trash bagged with sliders. (that really hurts the glider though, lame) -SPACE- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohanW 0 #45 December 23, 2009 Quote my wingsuit experience is too low for a 135? how so? Let me rephrase that to read more like what I intended. "Wingsuiting a Stiletto 135 is not ideal (wingsuiting a Stiletto never is, in any size), but with your (relatively low) wingload and (relatively high) experience, it can be done." My comment on the repacks stands. Quote snap roll/ roll are pretty much the same thing. a roll is pretty much flipping the parachute or glider around the direction of flight, very hard to do clean in a paraglider, but a speed glider it is pretty easy. I have done them in Saber 150s, you just need a ton of entry speed. (no weight shift, just a precise fast and deep brake input that 'rolls' the glider underneath and around the pilot,) Sounds fun. Quote I would NEVER try to deploy a paraglider from a wingsuit. Sounds smart. Quote I just need a canopy for skydiving that I don't have to do a special deployment method every time I use it. (IE a regular skydive rig) my speed glider deployments have all been with a slider and on a bullet 12 'trash bagged'. I built a thin modified PG harness with a cutaway system in it that I wear under a skydive rig. My paraglider deployments have all been from a 'Dr Bill' (note; Dr not 'Mr') and without any mod to the glider. All of this sounds like fun, but like a lot of work and never the right tool for the job. Do one thing on one flight, another on the next. I just don't see how you're going to compromise to your satisfaction. (Please prove me wrong. )Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calvin19 0 #46 December 23, 2009 I agree that a small elliptical canopy is bad for WS. but I don't really have the funds for 2 rigs, my skydive rig will for some part not be for skydiving. (partially as a dual parachute system 'reserve' for the [legal] PG jumps I am going to continue doing) being at 18,000' under a paraglider, with the ability to fly a state or two away and sink in dead air at 200'/min [as opposed to 1000'/min under skydive gear] is an interesting situation. lots of dropzone logistics, airspace issues, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #47 December 23, 2009 QuoteI spend 90% of my flying time footlaunching paragliders, from 8m to 38m. (90 to 400 ft^2) aspect ratios from 2.5/1 to 8/1 of course I know I will not get much more than 3/1 LD out of a skydive canopy, I was just hoping to find something built for skydiving that I could have as much fun with after deployment as I do with a 12m bullet. I have come to think that a stilletto 135 should be perfect. I can wingsuit with it, Nearly every one I know who decided to use their regular elliptical canopy for wingsuit jumps has had a cutaway (I chopped my Batwing, Jay jettisoned his Samurai, Grant got rid of his 104, etc.). Most of us have had the sense to switch to something better behaved on opening (I have a Monarch 135, Jay switched to a Spectre which he later replaced with a Sabre2). I think using an elliptical canopy for wing suit jumps is a bad idea and using a Stiletto is especially bad. You don't need two whole rigs - just an extra canopy and set of risers. Apart from that the Stiletto is a fine parachute. I put 600 jumps on my Stiletto 120 (Alan Lo's old canopy) and loved that thing. Didn't find anything I liked better until I tried the Samurai (which is trimmed steeper than you'd like). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calvin19 0 #48 December 24, 2009 word. I'll start a different thread about container. I am DEFINITELY going to get something with dynamic corners, I had a Mirage G3 built for a 135 and for 60 jumps I put my dagger 222 in it as well as 5 jumps I put a CUS Blackjack 260 in there with the corners cut open. worked GREAT. (freepacked, of course) Jay E? he da man. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites murps2000 86 #49 December 26, 2009 Aerodyne used to make the AR-11, as in 11 cells. I don't think it was a sales success but it might fit your needs if you can find one. Better ask someone who actually flew one, tho. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
JohanW 0 #38 December 23, 2009 Quote Quote Glide angle should not change with wingload. in a perfect aerodynamic world, yes. but it does change. induced drag and lift increase exponentially with speed, but so does parasite drag. When you get to the point of overloading the canopy, you'd notice the change. Barring that, it should be minimally noticeable between adjacent sizes, if at all. Quote Quote The question in my mind remains, why do you want a flat glide, and what do you consider flat? I consider flat to be the 10/1 glide I can get out of some of the gliders I fly. of course I'll consider something less for a freefall designed parachute. Now we're getting somewhere. AFAIK, parachutes have glide ratios on the order of 3/1. That means you'll have difficulty finding something to your liking. The Crossfire has the flattest glide I know, but has a long recovery arc. If you are prepared to retrim a Stiletto to glide flatter (possibly to the point of it not having enough drive left - it has the factory trim for a reason), you are likely not going to be satisfied with any skydiving wing. Let's face it, the aspect ratio and ellipticalness (?) can be much higher on a wing that does not have to open in freefall - a skydiving wing is always going to be less efficient than a groundlaunched wing. There is a reason ARs (in skydiving) vary between 2 and 3 or thereabouts. In short, what you want would open in a spin every time. Quote what I want is something that flies like my bullet 12m paraglider but is designed to be opened a few thousand times after freefall. I have jumped my bullet and i LOVE it but it was built like a paraglider and does not handle the deployment loads well. So how were the openings? If they were anywhere near predictable, get the manufacturer to build you one in ZP (and HMA or something lines, and with lots of reinforcing tape, and, and .. before you know it, you'll be on the phone with Brian Germain or John LeBlanc or someone); the openings can be adjusted with a slider, bag, nose &c. but be prepared for the performance hit you are going to take because of increased skin and line drag. Well, get a quote first. It'd be expensive, probably fruitless (Parachutes de France also had a project I believe - never happened either), but if you don't try, you'll never know, will you?Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreggB 0 #39 December 23, 2009 Early 90's there was an article in Skydiving or Parachutist about someone that had a hybrid PG/parachute built. And did a little deploy-> soaring. I think there was some harebrained scheme to jump and soar across Canada. I recall it didn't work well. Of course stuff has gotten alot better since so I don't know what could be built now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #40 December 23, 2009 I spend 90% of my flying time footlaunching paragliders, from 8m to 38m. (90 to 400 ft^2) aspect ratios from 2.5/1 to 8/1 of course I know I will not get much more than 3/1 LD out of a skydive canopy, I was just hoping to find something built for skydiving that I could have as much fun with after deployment as I do with a 12m bullet. I have come to think that a stilletto 135 should be perfect. I can wingsuit with it, and still fly fairly well. I like to snap roll the hell out of canopies a lot, but I also like that I can do a 180 from less than 200' and a roll from 100. (not in a stilletto, obviously, but getting close). I have not owned a skydive rig in 3 years, so I want to be sure. openings were fine. crisp and on heading out the door. (way sub terminal) I have also jumped mid 20s square meter paragliders with awesome results. those are very VERY complicated to deploy. I believe the other poster was talking about my man Jimmy Hall, pioneering deployable paragliders about a decade ago. he did a bunch of soaring in the islands after deploying and paved the way for my projects. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #41 December 23, 2009 With your wingload and experience, wingsuiting a Stiletto 135 is not ideal (it never is), but it can be done. You do have access to cheap repacks, right? Not having experience with paragliding, what is a snap roll and what is a roll? A wingsuit will not exactly give you a subterminal opening, so I still doubt deploying a paraglider wing in freefall would be a good idea, frankly. But if it's worth it to you, go for it. Don't think we're going to find anything better suited to your requirements. Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fab777 0 #42 December 23, 2009 QuoteI have also jumped mid 20s square meter paragliders with awesome results. those are very VERY complicated to deploy. When you mention "jumping" a speed wing or a paraglider, do you mean D-bagging it of a non moving airship, or skydive it? Or maybe rollovers... Would you elaborate on this please? Fabien BASE#944 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #43 December 23, 2009 my wingsuit experience is too low for a 135? how so? ~120 wingsuit skydives with anything from a saber 170 to a vengeance 120, and 100 or so WS BASE jumps. snap roll/ roll are pretty much the same thing. a roll is pretty much flipping the parachute or glider around the direction of flight, very hard to do clean in a paraglider, but a speed glider it is pretty easy. I have done them in Saber 150s, you just need a ton of entry speed. (no weight shift, just a precise fast and deep brake input that 'rolls' the glider underneath and around the pilot,) I would NEVER try to deploy a paraglider from a wingsuit. I just need a canopy for skydiving that I don't have to do a special deployment method every time I use it. (IE a regular skydive rig) my speed glider deployments have all been with a slider and on a bullet 12 'trash bagged'. I built a thin modified PG harness with a cutaway system in it that I wear under a skydive rig. My paraglider deployments have all been from a 'Dr Bill' (note; Dr not 'Mr') and without any mod to the glider. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #44 December 23, 2009 I have rolled over paragliders but not speed gliders. I have done 'jumps' with my fly frame on a speed glider off a few exit points, but no 'deployments' of a speed glider other than trash bagged with sliders. (that really hurts the glider though, lame) -SPACE- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #45 December 23, 2009 Quote my wingsuit experience is too low for a 135? how so? Let me rephrase that to read more like what I intended. "Wingsuiting a Stiletto 135 is not ideal (wingsuiting a Stiletto never is, in any size), but with your (relatively low) wingload and (relatively high) experience, it can be done." My comment on the repacks stands. Quote snap roll/ roll are pretty much the same thing. a roll is pretty much flipping the parachute or glider around the direction of flight, very hard to do clean in a paraglider, but a speed glider it is pretty easy. I have done them in Saber 150s, you just need a ton of entry speed. (no weight shift, just a precise fast and deep brake input that 'rolls' the glider underneath and around the pilot,) Sounds fun. Quote I would NEVER try to deploy a paraglider from a wingsuit. Sounds smart. Quote I just need a canopy for skydiving that I don't have to do a special deployment method every time I use it. (IE a regular skydive rig) my speed glider deployments have all been with a slider and on a bullet 12 'trash bagged'. I built a thin modified PG harness with a cutaway system in it that I wear under a skydive rig. My paraglider deployments have all been from a 'Dr Bill' (note; Dr not 'Mr') and without any mod to the glider. All of this sounds like fun, but like a lot of work and never the right tool for the job. Do one thing on one flight, another on the next. I just don't see how you're going to compromise to your satisfaction. (Please prove me wrong. )Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #46 December 23, 2009 I agree that a small elliptical canopy is bad for WS. but I don't really have the funds for 2 rigs, my skydive rig will for some part not be for skydiving. (partially as a dual parachute system 'reserve' for the [legal] PG jumps I am going to continue doing) being at 18,000' under a paraglider, with the ability to fly a state or two away and sink in dead air at 200'/min [as opposed to 1000'/min under skydive gear] is an interesting situation. lots of dropzone logistics, airspace issues, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #47 December 23, 2009 QuoteI spend 90% of my flying time footlaunching paragliders, from 8m to 38m. (90 to 400 ft^2) aspect ratios from 2.5/1 to 8/1 of course I know I will not get much more than 3/1 LD out of a skydive canopy, I was just hoping to find something built for skydiving that I could have as much fun with after deployment as I do with a 12m bullet. I have come to think that a stilletto 135 should be perfect. I can wingsuit with it, Nearly every one I know who decided to use their regular elliptical canopy for wingsuit jumps has had a cutaway (I chopped my Batwing, Jay jettisoned his Samurai, Grant got rid of his 104, etc.). Most of us have had the sense to switch to something better behaved on opening (I have a Monarch 135, Jay switched to a Spectre which he later replaced with a Sabre2). I think using an elliptical canopy for wing suit jumps is a bad idea and using a Stiletto is especially bad. You don't need two whole rigs - just an extra canopy and set of risers. Apart from that the Stiletto is a fine parachute. I put 600 jumps on my Stiletto 120 (Alan Lo's old canopy) and loved that thing. Didn't find anything I liked better until I tried the Samurai (which is trimmed steeper than you'd like). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #48 December 24, 2009 word. I'll start a different thread about container. I am DEFINITELY going to get something with dynamic corners, I had a Mirage G3 built for a 135 and for 60 jumps I put my dagger 222 in it as well as 5 jumps I put a CUS Blackjack 260 in there with the corners cut open. worked GREAT. (freepacked, of course) Jay E? he da man. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #49 December 26, 2009 Aerodyne used to make the AR-11, as in 11 cells. I don't think it was a sales success but it might fit your needs if you can find one. Better ask someone who actually flew one, tho. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
