Should future World Meets be hosted at DZ's with super high elevation?

[frost 1]

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Holding a swoop competition at 5000'MSL...maybe not so silly to consider the ramifications. If there have been four incidents in two days

DSE brought up a very good point that i was thinking about myself.

Not everyone out of 70 competitors is as capable as the top 10-20. Not everyone has the much needed competition experience. Not everyone has the funds to stay there for two weeks and practice as much as they need to to readjust from their near sea level home dropzones. Far too many people are getting hurt.

Not to mention that the jump prices are expensive ($33 for a hop and pop +$5 daily DZ fee), the location is remote, the modern day facilities such as internet is scarce, the travel is difficult and the weather doesn't seem to be cooperative in that region of the world.

So why would IPC/FAI chose a remote location with a 5100 ft MSL landing altitude as the host for the World Meets?? Is this a competitive event, where pilots can safely measure their skills and compare themselves against a field of world competitors OR is setting a distance record or a speed record more important??

[davelepka 4]

I couldn't even begin to tell you how they choose a location for a meet. It's hard to ignore the numbers posted at MileHi, and everyone wants their meet to be the one in the record books, but I would have to think that's only a part of the equation. There has to be some sort of bidding system, buddy system or plain old bribery at work as well.

Either way, if you plan to attend a world cup level event, it's your responsibility to have your shit together before the meet.

You should be experienced in competition swooping, which is not to say that you need to attend 20 comps before the world cup, but that you have progressed through learning how swoop into learning competition swooping. You should have set up entry gates at your home DZ, and got those dialed in. You should move on to set up the different courses beyond the gates, and flown those until you had a good handle on it.

If you want to go to the world cup, you should be current. It takes a concentrated effort, but you should try to crank out 20 jumps in the week before the comp.

Not everyone can afford to show up a week ahead of time to acclimate, but anyone looking to compete on the world level should be factoring in at least a couple days and a couple dozen jumps beofre the comp. Even if the comp was at sea level, you need to get into the grove of the new DZ.

Even RW guys, for whom the air is the same everywhere, know about the need to spend a couple days 'warming up' and getting your game face on.

Competition swooping is just like any other kind of swooping in that it takes a great amount of training and dedication. Not everyone is cut out for it, and not everyone is ready for it. You need to be realistic about your abilities and skill level before attending such a meet. If you are truely ready for that level of competiiton, than the only 'new' thing for you would be the alititude, and you're capable of making that adjustment in short order.

[frost 1]

Thanks for your reply, Dave. You make some very good points, no question (I'll assume when you say "you", you mean it in a general sense, applicable to everyone).

I dont know how many DZs have put in a bid to host this event. I am not 100% sure how the bidding system works, i can only make an educated guess. I want to believe that the buddy system and bribery doesnt take place, but i think you're right... it probably does. And IF it does, i just hope FAI/IPC makes it a more strict and ethical process and considers the safety, needs and interests of the competitors more in the future.

i wonder, if it was a US dropzone like, say, Spaceland with the facilities, the know-how and the $15 jumps, would it make more sense for competitors even those traveling from far parts of the world? Both financially and performance-wise?

[davelepka 4]

Yeah, I don't mean you personally.

In terms of the selection process, I would think that some sort of variety would be a factor too, If the meet is for competitors all over the world, you would need to move it around to be fair. If you had evey comp in Europe, it's unfair to the Africans and the South Americans, and so on.

Has the world cup ever been in the US? It would seem that with the USPA, and ass-load of DZs, the last thing we need is another swoop comp. On top of that, it requires the whole world to come to the US, which is a hike for a lot of people.

There's no doubt that the US has the most DZ capable of hosting with the lowest jump prices anywhere in the world, but that might be the very thing that keeps these comps out of the US.

In terms of safety, I sort of look at it this way - I've seen some freestyle motocross comps held indoors, and those guys had ZERO room for error left/right and very little run-off space after the jump. Regardless, nobody had a problem with any of that, because the competitors were appropriately skilled to be in that competition.

I'm sure there are less skilled competitors and less demanding venues for a comp, and that's exactly where those guys should be. Once you get your shit together, and are ready for the big time, you can do your superman seat grab indoors in front of 5000 screaming fans.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Thought I would come out of my posting retirement to chime in here. I wish I could come out of my competitive swooping retirement, but I am just not current and having a winter blizzard hit Canuckistan like it is today, you know talking about swooping is as close as I will get to it.

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Not everyone out of 70 competitors is as capable

I think this is an even bigger issue than whether or not a World Swoop meet should be held in South Africa at a high altitude DZ. We know swooping can be done at high altitude DZs. It just needs a slightly different approach. In fact I would go out on a limb and say that once you know how to swoop at altitude, it is easier to do than swooping at sea level.

Anyway I think we should focus more on the talent of the people versus the location of an event. Take my country as an example. Canada has some good swoopers, but most of Canada's good swoopers do not live in Canada. It's just not the right type of country to stay current with swooping in. Plus the same can be said for some of these other competitor's countries. Just because someone is good at their DZ or good in their country does not mean they meet a minimum standard for competing on the world stage. The Olympics does not let any yahoo from some country enter their Alpine Skiing events unless they have the skills and have competed at previous World Cup events. Sure a few have slipped through the cracks (like Eddie the Eagle at the '88 Calgary Olympics), but nowadays the Olympic officials make sure the competitors meet minimum standards before they are allow in.

Maybe swooping shouldn't be all that worried about marketing a competition as a "World" event. People need to be honest with themselves when they consider entering an event. Do they have the minimum skill set that is required to be at that event. Sure I would take pride in representing my country, but will I take pride being in an event when my skills are not even remotely close to the skills of another competitor who wasn't even good enough to be selected to represent their country? The best swoopers live and train in the USA (that doesn't mean they are US citizens) with a few others sprinkled around the world. As much as I wish competitive swooping was global, reality tells us that it is not.

Now if you will excuse me, I need to crawl back under the snowy rock from which I came from as while my DZ.COM moniker may give the impression that I am still in the USA, reality has me back living in my native frozen tundra where the real reason why Canadian couples like doing it doggy style is because this allows both of them to watch the hockey game at the same time.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[imsparticus 0]

Should pipeline teaupoo or cloudbreak be taken off the WCT and should we make the amount of compeditors go from (x) being only limited by the amount of people who are willing to attend the meet? wouldnt some 2ft beach break between the flags with shark nets and life guards on hand that everyone could easily get to with toilets showers lots of parking and better amenities be a much safer place for compeditors to measure themselves against eachother and then every joe blow who cant afford/doesnt get the chance to surf those types of waves and can make the 8am sign on etc and could have a crack (actually make sign on 11pm that way the lazy people who have trouble getting out of bed have a chance to compete aswell) wouldnt that be fairer??
suck it up princess this is ment to be a world title where the best of the best come to do their thing not some local fun run where everyone gets a turn and a ribbon at the end of the day.

if you really wanna make the sport safer and look more profesional to the general public (take the sport mainstream) disqualify any swoop that doesnt end with a stand up landing (no wuffo spectator wants to see the elite slide/chow in on their ass like its the norm), and dont allow people that cant consistently stand up there landings @ (x) sec or (x) meters etc during qualifying make it to cometition, does swooping even have qualifying or is hittling the gates and making it across the pond good enough??

[polarbear 1]

I've spent virtually my whole swooping career (about 2000 jumps) at DZs at 5000' MSL. There is no reason you can't swoop safely at that altitude; you simply have to understand that your parachute flies faster, dives harder, and will not recover as strongly when in those conditions. Personally I think world-level competitiors should be prepared for this. We had comps in Denver for years without major problems.

I strongly suspect that a major contributor in the recent incidents isn't so much the density altitude, but rather the fact that more and more people are pushing their recovery arcs deeper in order to try and get the performance level the top guys get. That tactic works, but you better be on your game. For people only making a few hundred jumps a year (rather than the 1000 + top guys make) it may not be such a good idea to do that, especially in an environment where your canopy is flying more aggressively than you are used to.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[frost 1]

go away, troll. please.

[frost 1]

You make some good points and examples. If one cant be honest with oneself, then the standard should be put in place that will do it for them. How would we do it? Here in the USA it, in a way, is the Open class CP Nationals. In other countries it is not so simple. There are teams consisting of ONE person. Lets use some real examples. Super G from Lithuania - got hurt badly. Dmytro Karpekov from Ukraine - got red carded for an erratic approach. There are teams from other countries for which the selection process was this: "Can you pay your way to Africa? Yes? Ok you can come." Literally. So in my experience, being honest with oneself sometimes is harder to do than to win a Gold Medal.

P.S. please see my post below, my thoughts on this are continued there

[frost 1]

You're right CJ, there is no reason not to have a safe swoop at a higher altitude. However you are way off on the statement that all comps in Denver went without major problems. I can point out at least one fairly severe incident from each of the two years i've been there, both happening to more or less novice pilots.

The top dogs will be safe and do well in any conditions, no doubt. And while your suspicion about people pushing and getting ahead of themselves is warranted, i suspect that nearly half, if not more, of the 70 people currently present at the world meet are nowhere near the level of the top 15-20 guys. Most of the Open class pilots around the world dont have the skill or the experience that the top Pros have. It's the lesser skilled pilots in the mid-bottom of the roster, the people that do this for fun but still qualify to compete, yet just dont have the ability to spend the time to train and adjust that may experience difficulties and the "negative" effects of the higher altitude HP landings.

Tougher standards on entries into the world event? Is being selected in the Open class in your country's Nationals Championships not enough? Then there are SINGLE athlete teams from some countries (see my examples from the post above). Do you deny them entry into a world event? How? What standards would you use? Do you wait for them to pound in then give them a red card? And if thats done, then we might as well hold it here, since 80-85% of these top guys are always in the US anyway, so at least they can enjoy the benefits of internet and cheap jumps
What my point was, i guess is... why not just consider the fact that there are MANY pilots out there in the world that CAN and WILL represent their countries at the World Meet, but would do so safer and more productively if an environmental variable (or handicap) of the higher landing altitude was taken out of the equation?

[davelepka 4]

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why not just consider the fact that there are MANY pilots out there in the world that CAN and WILL represent their countries at the World Meet, but would do so safer and more productively if an environmental variable (or handicap) of the higher landing altitude was taken out of the equation?

I'm not even sure if I'm playing devil's advocate or not, but couldn't you say the same thing about other changes to environmental factors?

You mentioned Spaceland as a venue. That's got to be close to sea level, what about the competitors who come from DZ situated at 3000ft msl? Now they have to lower their initiation altitude to make up for the loss in LZ eleveation.

Are you better off at a high DZ telling the jumpers to turn high, or a low DZ telling them to turn low?

You could say the same thing about temps. Spaceland in the summer has got to be blazing. You mentioned SDC, and a mid-Nov comp. on a cold year might be looking at temps on the ground around 40.

If you factor in the different altitude and temp ranges as DZs across the world (literally), you can see that you could chase the 'perfect' venue all over the place just based on the time of year. That's why I can't see using density altitude as a metric for choosing comp locations.

What wouldn't be a bad idea for competitive (or asipring) swoopers would be to calculate and monitor the density alititude anytime you're going to be swooping. If you compare that to your swoops for the day in terms of initiation altitude, and overall performance, each swooper could begin to develop a 'feel' for the differences. You could even calculate the DA at a new-to-you DZ, and have a good idea how your canopy will perform before you make jump 1.

Let's face it, aerodynamics and density altitude play a huge roll in swooping, and I don't think it's too much to expect from a competition level swooper that they understand those areas.

In terms of vetting who gets to compete and who doesn't, if your home country wants to send you, you either need some type of verifiable competiton experience, or you have to pass some sort of 'qualifier'. Maybe 3 or 4 jumps, the first two just basic 'through the gates' swoops, and maybe a curved course run or two. They wouldn't be scored, you just have to hit the gates, and demonstrate a basic level of skill.

[dragon2 0]

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In terms of vetting who gets to compete and who doesn't, if your home country wants to send you, you either need some type of verifiable competiton experience, or you have to pass some sort of 'qualifier'. Maybe 3 or 4 jumps, the first two just basic 'through the gates' swoops, and maybe a curved course run or two. They wouldn't be scored, you just have to hit the gates, and demonstrate a basic level of skill.

And even that has killed a competition swooper (Nadine, Germany 2005) when she was on a familiar DZ (and hence presumably pre-qualified) but tried to prove herself anyway in very windy conditions when other jumpers (including PD team members if I recall correctly) were standing down or advising against jumping.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[AggieDave 6]

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aerodynamics and density altitude play a huge roll in swooping, and I don't think it's too much to expect from a competition level swooper that they understand those areas.

A lot of us take those things into consideration. Some use a lot of numbers, some have bench marks that they use for various conditions.

By bench marks, I mean that the swooper has general terms, instead of a gradual sliding scale its more of "if X then Y." As in "If at Mile-Hi and the conditions are Z then I bump my turn 125 ft" or "If at Spaceland and conditions are Z then I lower my turn 20 ft." Then those bench marks are used for similarly elevated DZ's with similar conditions.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[davelepka 4]

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A lot of us take those things into consideration. Some use a lot of numbers, some have bench marks that they use for various conditions.

Yeah, that's what I suggested in the next paragraph. By tracking the density altitude and your own swooping data on those days, you can go into a comp. at any DZ at any density altitude with a fair idea of what to expect.

Even if you have never been as far up as MileHi, just the act tracking and working with density altitude will ensure that you are familiar with it and it's effects.

[davelepka 4]

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And even that has killed a competition swooper (Nadine, Germany 2005) when she was on a familiar DZ (and hence presumably pre-qualified) but tried to prove herself anyway in very windy conditions when other jumpers (including PD team members if I recall correctly) were standing down or advising against jumping.

That may be true, but I wouldn't place the blame for that incident on the qualifying process, but the individual jumper and possibly the meet organizer.

The individual jumper, of course, should have used common sense and taken ques from the other jumpers involved in the competition, and had more regard for her own personal safety.

Possibly the meet organizers for not halting the competition activites due to the conditions. Just because conditions are such that they are within the confines of the local wind limit regualtions doesn't mean they are acceptable for holding a swoop competitons.

As an example, I've made many jumps with winds above 20 mph, and they were all paid video jumps where the DZO and TIs wanted to get the tandems out. These conditions are well within my comfort zone, but I was not throwing aggressive 450s on landing. Add to that the fact that many swoop comps are held on ponds where you can only go two directions, and you can see that competition wind limits need to be lower than general skydiving wind limits.

Using a qualifier to vet potential competitors is not fool proof. The bulk of the responsibility for any skydive is still planted firmly on the shoulders of the individual jumper. You can never remove the human element from jumping, but a qualifier which begins with easy, non-scored swoops will at least remove the pressure of tyring to perform and earn a score from a jumper who is new to competition.

[Kolla 0]

I suspect that not too many locations are bidding to host a CP World Cup/Meet as the requirements are pretty stiff (pond of legal size/proportions, appropriately rated judging panel/technical course director, electronic scoring system etc etc).
Takes a bit more than an airplane and a manifestor to put on a Category 1 event.

The rules of the event are pretty specific when it comes to wind limits and course set up, but there is nothing in there that addresses temperature, humidity, density altitude, elevation etc - all of which play a role when it comes to canopy flight.
Should they be regulated? Or is adapting and responding to changes in those a part of what it means to be a canopy piloting competitor?
I don't have that answer - nor am I a competitor, just a humble judge.

Really interesting conversation Frost, thanks for bringing it up.
Look forward to hear everyone's thoughts, especially as it is less than a month until the Florida league starts up for the 2010 season. Hope to see lot of safe competitors for the first meet in Sebastian!

Kolla

Blue Skies Magazine

[polarbear 1]

The one serious incident I remember is from a novice competitior at his first big competiton who not only chose to fly a canopy a size smaller than he had ever flown but strapped on a tremendous amount of weight under it for the first time during the comp. I don't mention all this to rip the guy, just to point out that his crash probably had more to do with all of the factors above than the density altitude.

I personally find it is much easier to go up in density altitude than down. When I go from my 5000 MSL DZ to a sea level dropzone, I have to force my turn donw pretty low and it takes me a bit to get used to it. I basically have to force the turn lower and trust the canopy will recover faster, which it does, but for the first day or two I'm not 100% sure of my sight pictuyre for pulling out of the turn. That isn't a safe way to fly, and sure as hell isn't the situtaion you want to be in when intentionally putting yourself in the corner and just nipping the top of the gate to get a perfect competition run. You have to be 100% sure of your recovery arc to do that, so you better do what's necessary to get the recovery right first.

I also personally accept that I don't make the number of jumps in a year to push my recovery arc as hard as the top guys do. I did it for a short time and messed myself up pretty good as a reward. I make a little over 300 jumps a year, which isn't enough for me to fly with that small of a margin of error, so I don't. It means I never do as well in comps as maybe I'd like to, which sucks, but it's safer and I see it as a necessary precaution. Personally I think a lot of us are in the same boat, but we all have to make our own choices.

When I go someplace with a drastically different DA, I usually take the first several jumps - maybe even the first day - and focus just on getting the recovery arc right. No gates, no courses, no other factors. Just recovery arc. Get that dialed in first, then I worry about the rest. I kinda think everyone should do that, but most people don't.

I also do think we sometimes are a little too easy with yellow cards. This is a touchy subject, however, because:

a) it's subjective
b) it's a swoop comp. People are intentionally putting themselves a little in the corner. People will sometimes get a bit too low. It's scary and dangerous but it must be expected. At a local meet it's easier, but when someone has flown halfway around the world to compete in a meet, you better be sure before you disqualify them.
c) even the best screw up sometimes. I've personally seen Ian Bobo and Shannon Pilcher smack pretty hard becasue they were pushing things. Nick Batsch lives his life in the corner.
d) judges aren't watching every training run. It isn't fair if one dude gets a yellow/red card for something when later in the day other people get away with the same shit just becasue a judge isn't watching.

It's a tough problem, I agree, and no one wants to see people get hurt. Not sure what the right solution is but personally I see no reason to take away swoop meets at higher DZs - pilots just have to understand what they are getting in to and adapt.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[AggieDave 6]

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Personally I think a lot of us are in the same boat

I'm with you. Too many times the real life and the job get in the way of all the training we would like to do.

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I also do think we sometimes are a little too easy with yellow cards

I didn't come up with this, but I like this rule of thumb for the meets I run: "If you hip check the pond and fly your canopy out, then its a yellow card. If you hip check the pond and the canopy flies you out of the pond, its a red card."

Obviously, there is still subject to the opinion of the head judge, but its a catchy "rule of thumb."

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[polarbear 1]

Just another couple of thougts: My observation is that most folks use the exact same equipment when they go to hgh elevation DZs.

Since I live at 5000', I fly a canopy that is probably a size bigger than I would use if I lived at sea level. When I know I am going to a sea level DZ for a comp, I will change the way I train. For instance, I might not wear any weight while training at my home DZ (which is at 5000'), then when I get to the sea level DZ I'll start using my weight (which in my case is 15 lbs). OR, I'll train at home with a bigger canopy, then switch down one size when I get to sea level. I find it helps a lot to make up the difference in the dive and recovery due to the lower density altitude.

Either way I find I still ahve to take the first day or so and just focus on the recovery arc so I get comfortable with that before I start shooting gates.

But again I don't get great results so what do I know. I've just survived my swooping escapades thus far.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[polarbear 1]

One more thought:

We frequently make the argument that it's safer/preferable for a swooping canopy to have a longer recovery arc. It affords a higher margin of error, as you can err on the high side and the natural dive of the canopy will carry more of your speed through the reovery arc and into the swoop. The one thing is that the pilot MUST recognize that the canopy has that long recovery and therefore must not put himself too low.

I think the same argument applies to flying at higher elevation. When you go up in elevation, your recovery arc lengthens. This enables you to err on the high side and still get a decent swoop. Point is, you MUST recogize the longer recovery arc and fly accordingly.

It's all about knowing what you've got and how to use it. If you think you can take your sea level equipment and flying style and do it exactly the same at 5000 feet you will be dangerously wrong. I would expect world-class competitiors to know this, but I can understand how if you've never had to fly at that high an elevation how it could be a big change.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[bob.dino 0]

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There has to be some sort of bidding system, buddy system or plain old bribery at work as well.

Of course there's a bidding system. It's called "fill out the forms that say what you're going to do and how you're going to do it." There's plenty of information on how the process works at the FAI website, though you may have to root around a bit; it's not the world's best organised.

Have a look at the list of advisors to the IPC Canopy Piloting Committee. Jay Moledzki, Henny Wiggers, and Ian Bobo all help that committee with its decisions.

Oh, and I wouldn't throw around words like "bribery" unless you can back it up.

[aykay 0]

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disqualify any swoop that doesnt end with a stand up landing (no wuffo spectator wants to see the elite slide/chow in on their ass like its the norm),

Yeeeaaaahhh. In some conditions thats like asking your surfer to surf up to the car park while waxing their board and building a sand castle to get a scoring run. There have been scoring changes to encourage standup landings in zone acc for example.

[imsparticus 0]

actually i think its more like asking a surfer not to fall off his surfboard or be penalised. its up to the surfer to figure out how. if he wants to take out his 5ft fishboard into 15ft waves then hes gonna have a hard time staying upright or even paddling onto them. capish

[superstu 0]

To answer the original question, I think there is nothing wrong with having a WORLD event held at any elevation.

I only attended 4 competitions in 2009, all of which were at sea level, and out of those 4 competitions there were 2 severe incidences where the medics had to be called. Also, for both of these times the people that got hurt trained at sea level, one of which had trained on-site for a long time.

Bottom line in my opinion is that yeah elevation and density altitude definitely have an impact on people and how they swoop, but what's more important i think is that when people get into a competition atmosphere they are more likely to do stupid things they wouldn't normally do. it can be caused by either inexperience with hitting gates, being around the best swoopers in the world, environmental factors, or damn near anything, because it all changes in a competition, let alone the World Cup of Canopy Piloting.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[raymod2 1]

As a competitor I agree with what Kolla has suggested. Adaptation is fundamental to competitive swooping. Changes in temperature, humidity, elevation, body weight, wind speed, wind direction, etc. must all be accounted for. I don't think that putting restrictions on elevation is necessary or desirable.

I also agree with most of what CJ has said. I started swooping competitively right around the time they built the pond in Longmont, CO. I personally looked forward to competing there every year partly because of the pond but also because of the high altitude. You flew faster and farther and it was *easier* to hit the gates, at least for me. Sure you had to adjust your initiation altitude and, more importantly, you had to start your rollout higher. But anyone who has downsized their canopy or added lead or (gasp) switched from a 9-cell to a 7-cell has made the same adjustments before.

As for the cost of jump tickets... $33? Really? I thought $25 was excessive in Australia. My understanding is that jump ticket prices are part of the bid and one of the criteria used in selecting the venue. I guess there weren't many bids this year.