The "D" Point Discussion

[BrianSGermain 1]

I would like to begin a thread here to discuss the recent article I posted entitled "The 'D' Point".

I know it may be a lot to digest for some, and thought it might be a good idea to further the conversation so everyone understands what I was trying to say.

Did it make sense to everyone?

Brian

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com

[rhanold 0]

I think I get the point of it. I see how this will give the pilot information on the distance of the base leg however doesn't the east/west component of the "D" point become more critical than the east/west component of the "C" point in the current standard landing pattern? I might be looking at this wrong but I think adding the "D" point constricts some flexibility of the old pattern.

(I associated up with north in the diagrams)

~Ryan

[blackdog 0]

thank you for taking the time to give that article Brian. It makes complete sense from my standpoint. How a person visualizes their setup as per weather/all conditions is the only thing they can really control; which then leads one to the importance of the veto power with the eyes. Consistency and practice create canopy understanding.

Keep the info coming please..or rather I need to finally get with you in one of your camps.

[BrianSGermain 1]

Quote

I think I get the point of it. I see how this will give the pilot information on the distance of the base leg however doesn't the east/west component of the "D" point become more critical than the east/west component of the "C" point in the current standard landing pattern? I might be looking at this wrong but I think adding the "D" point constricts some flexibility of the old pattern.

(I associated up with north in the diagrams)

~Ryan

One would think so, but if the pattern is flown correctly, hitting the points at the appropriate altitude, the east/west component, (what I call "depth), requires minimal correction to hit the target. If you are high, just extend the Base leg, and if you are low, just cut off the corner a bit by turning final early.

If your base leg is not the correct length (the "B" point is wrong), there is a great deal of correction necessary to hit the slope that leads to the target. The goal here is to put ourselves on a flight path that is perpendicular to the Final, and wait for the angle to look right. Then, we simply turn final and reap the benefits of a good plan.

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com

[TangBu 1]

I had a "eureka" moment when I first started reading your article, then I realised it doesn't really help with my biggest accuracy problem - overshooting or undershooting. Your method pretty much guarantees that I'll be heading straight towards the target on final, but I can't see how it helps me decide how long the downwind (C to B) leg should be. If D is too close to the target, I'll travel too far downwind and be short; if D is too far away, I overshoot.

Am I missing something (else) obvious?

...Blair.

[BrianSGermain 1]

Quote

I had a "eureka" moment when I first started reading your article, then I realised it doesn't really help with my biggest accuracy problem - overshooting or undershooting. Your method pretty much guarantees that I'll be heading straight towards the target on final, but I can't see how it helps me decide how long the downwind (C to B) leg should be. If D is too close to the target, I'll travel too far downwind and be short; if D is too far away, I overshoot.

Am I missing something (else) obvious?

It is true that it makes things easier to place the "D" point the correct distance upwind of the target, but it is not essential. As long as you are in the ballpark, you can alter the angle of one of the legs (any of them, in fact), and you can get back on track. If you choose not to compensate, you will collect exactly the data you need to hit the target on the next jump. Just notice if you are short or long (high or low on the approach), and adjust the location of the "D" point accordingly.

The whole objective here is to learn how long the base leg needs to be, which is something of a mystery for most canopy pilots. This is usually the reason why folks overshoot or undershoot. It may seem backwards, but by taking the time to learn the gliding-distance for 300 feet of decent, we can create a good approach that required minimal corrections along the way.

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com

[rhanold 0]

Quote

One would think so, but if the pattern is flown correctly, hitting the points at the appropriate altitude, the east/west component, (what I call "depth), requires minimal correction to hit the target. If you are high, just extend the Base leg, and if you are low, just cut off the corner a bit by turning final early.

If your base leg is not the correct length (the "B" point is wrong), there is a great deal of correction necessary to hit the slope that leads to the target. The goal here is to put ourselves on a flight path that is perpendicular to the Final, and wait for the angle to look right. Then, we simply turn final and reap the benefits of a good plan.

So the "D" point pattern gets the pilot to the "B" point with the same accuracy only gives the pilot data on how long the base leg should be?

[IMALSUTIGERFAN 0]

While I don't have my accuracy down yet, only 19 jumps, My coach at my drop zone has been teaching me this method, I have been landing within 12 ft of my target. Accuracy is something I really want to perfect. I am amazed by the guys who pilot their chutes to a dot on the ground....One day I WILL be there...Thanks

[BrianSGermain 1]

Quote

While I don't have my accuracy down yet, only 19 jumps, My coach at my drop zone has been teaching me this method, I have been landing within 12 ft of my target. Accuracy is something I really want to perfect. I am amazed by the guys who pilot their chutes to a dot on the ground....One day I WILL be there...Thanks

You will. Until then, remember to appreciate each and every step of the way. There is no destination, only the journey.

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com

[skyshimas 0]

As I understand the "D" (flying from D to C) point should allow the pilot to determain the exact distance for his base leg- flying from B to A? Now there is a problem if the wind is not perfect. Let say we have wind on our backs while flying from D to C then on the base leg we will have wind in our faces, so both of these legs will not be the same lenght.

[BrianSGermain 1]

Bingo. It essential that the landing be into the wind for this method to work. However, it is not really necessary to fly this kind of approach on every single jump. Even if you only do it once in a while as a refresher, and when you are landing at a new location, you will reap huge benefits. When you are landing crosswind, you will need to compensate for increased distance across the ground when you have a tail wind, and the reduced distance when going into the wind, but at least you have taken the time to create a base-frame understanding of the scope of the pattern.

Try it. You will be surprised how far you travel on your base leg. It is an eye-opener!

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com

[IMALSUTIGERFAN 0]

Just another statment from beginner who knows nothing
I usually do my first jump of the day and pull high. This allows me to practice my landing pattern up high and to help figure out my distance runs and ground point referances. Not sure if this is a correct to try figure out my accuracy but it has help me a great deal.

[BrianSGermain 1]

Quote

Just another statment from beginner who knows nothing
I usually do my first jump of the day and pull high. This allows me to practice my landing pattern up high and to help figure out my distance runs and ground point referances. Not sure if this is a correct to try figure out my accuracy but it has help me a great deal.

It will help somewhat, but since upper level winds rarely reflect the direction and magnitude of the ground winds, the information will most likely be erroneous. If there is no wind at all, the information will be invaluable. I suggest running through a pattern on a now wind day up high. You will learn the distances necessary for a good pattern, and be able to extrapolate from there.

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com

[yoink 321]

Interesting idea, and certainly useful on hop n pops or dedicated canopy-working dives, but I'm not sure I like the idea on a standard dive with 20 people around unless everyone is using this pattern.

Like always, a mix of patterns is a bad thing, and this one creates the potential for canopies to be coming into point C (the standard entry point for a pattern) head-to-head, as usually people will be approaching from the side of the landing area, rather than over it.
That just feels like a bad idea...

[BrianSGermain 1]

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Interesting idea, and certainly useful on hop n pops or dedicated canopy-working dives, but I'm not sure I like the idea on a standard dive with 20 people around unless everyone is using this pattern.

Like always, a mix of patterns is a bad thing, and this one creates the potential for canopies to be coming into point C (the standard entry point for a pattern) head-to-head, as usually people will be approaching from the side of the landing area, rather than over it.
That just feels like a bad idea...

The point of this is not necessarily to do it on every single jump. It is a data-collection method that helps us discover the canopy's glide ratio so we can create accurate altitude-location checkpoints. Once you know the proportions, you can go back to flying a more "normal pattern".

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com

[bliston 0]

Brian,

If a jumper gets to the point where she/he is effectively using the four points you outline, obviously if they can initiate the D point turn at the right place on the North / South (perpendicular to the base leg) line to finish right on target that is ideal.

If adjustments need to be made, though (to lengthen or shorten their downwind leg), do you see any negatives to folks adjusting their angle of attack (with rear or fronts) during their C to B leg and maintaining the integrity of the rest of the pattern? Or do you thing it's easier/better for folks to learn to make their turn into the base leg earlier or later based on what they are seeing - thereby enforcing visual cues of their canopy's glide angle at full flight?

Thanks, in advance, for your thoughts.

Ben

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


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[BrianSGermain 1]

Quote

Brian,

If a jumper gets to the point where she/he is effectively using the four points you outline, obviously if they can initiate the D point turn at the right place on the North / South (perpendicular to the base leg) line to finish right on target that is ideal.

If adjustments need to be made, though (to lengthen or shorten their downwind leg), do you see any negatives to folks adjusting their angle of attack (with rear or fronts) during their C to B leg and maintaining the integrity of the rest of the pattern? Or do you thing it's easier/better for folks to learn to make their turn into the base leg earlier or later based on what they are seeing - thereby enforcing visual cues of their canopy's glide angle at full flight?

Thanks, in advance, for your thoughts.

Ben

Wow, that was a fantastIc question. I think it is ultimately both of these solutions that get us to th target, and neither will alter the data coming in from the pre-base leg. Watching the angle is always necessry for flying a good approach, as is making changes along the way if things look wrong. A few pure approaches, with no modificatin the flightpath can yeildnsome very valuable information.

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com

[voilsb 1]

I'm actually confused at the utility of this method. Won't the length of the base leg always be the distance between your "B" point and your "A" point? And your "A" point should always be directly downwind of your target. You can simply fly from your "B" point, and either shorten or lengthen your base leg to land on the target, instead of long or short, exactly how you described using your "D" point method.

Plus, I don't understand how you pick your "D" spot. Now instead of being confused as to where you initiate your pattern on the downwind run, you're confused as to where you initiate your pattern on the pre-base leg.
It's in line with the target, upwind an unknown distance. You then crab off the wind line an arbitrary distance, run downwind past your target, crab toward the wind line the same arbitrary distance you crabbed early, then hold into the wind along the windline.
How is this more accurate than setting up and running and arbitrary distance off the windline, crabbing toward the windline, then holding into the wind in line with your target? You still never determined how far downwind to run or how far upwind to start, in order to actually land on the target. And the base leg was still an arbitrary distance off the windline, decided before you ever ran downwind.

Also, you reference altitudes like 1200, 900, 600, and 300 feet. The SIM references 1000, 600, and 300 feet. Many instructors reference 1000, 500, and 300 or 250 feet. How do you adjust your "D" point method for these different altitude differences? You mentioned this scenario, but didn't bother to address it for some reason.
Or do you suggest that we should stop using these other pattern altitudes, and keep them all at equal (300') intervals?

I apologize if I sound too critical, and it's probably my lack of experience that caused this situation, but I read the article and genuinely thought "How does this help me? I don't know anybody who flies equidistant patterns like that, and everybody knows your base leg is the distance between your downwind and final legs."


Edited to add:
I haven't tried this method yet, but I plan to next time I get in the air, which hopefully will be Sunday.

Brian

[BrianSGermain 1]

Quote

I'm actually confused at the utility of this method. Won't the length of the base leg always be the distance between your "B" point and your "A" point? And your "A" point should always be directly downwind of your target. You can simply fly from your "B" point, and either shorten or lengthen your base leg to land on the target, instead of long or short, exactly how you described using your "D" point method.

Plus, I don't understand how you pick your "D" spot. Now instead of being confused as to where you initiate your pattern on the downwind run, you're confused as to where you initiate your pattern on the pre-base leg.
It's in line with the target, upwind an unknown distance. You then crab off the wind line an arbitrary distance, run downwind past your target, crab toward the wind line the same arbitrary distance you crabbed early, then hold into the wind along the windline.
How is this more accurate than setting up and running and arbitrary distance off the windline, crabbing toward the windline, then holding into the wind in line with your target? You still never determined how far downwind to run or how far upwind to start, in order to actually land on the target. And the base leg was still an arbitrary distance off the windline, decided before you ever ran downwind.

Also, you reference altitudes like 1200, 900, 600, and 300 feet. The SIM references 1000, 600, and 300 feet. Many instructors reference 1000, 500, and 300 or 250 feet. How do you adjust your "D" point method for these different altitude differences? You mentioned this scenario, but didn't bother to address it for some reason.
Or do you suggest that we should stop using these other pattern altitudes, and keep them all at equal (300') intervals?

I apologize if I sound too critical, and it's probably my lack of experience that caused this situation, but I read the article and genuinely thought "How does this help me? I don't know anybody who flies equidistant patterns like that, and everybody knows your base leg is the distance between your downwind and final legs."


Edited to add:
I haven't tried this method yet, but I plan to next time I get in the air, which hopefully will be Sunday.

These are all very common questions. All I can say is, you need to actually try it. The whole point is to learn the ACTUAL length of the base leg. That part, unlike the Downwind and Final, is NOT a variable. If you get consistent with the distance from the B to the A, you will learn the angle that the target will lie as you look from the B point view.

I understand that this is not a complete formula for accuracy, but it is part of the formula. Let's face it, most people do not have a formula at all, which is why most people do not land on the target. This gives folks a place to start.

Something I neglected to mention in the article is, you can have and "E" point too, just up wind of the target, on the windline. This will help put things together for you. If there is no wind at all, being at 1500 feet above the target, using 1200 for D, 900 for C, 600 for B and 300 for A, you will land on the target, bingo. Since there is usually some wind at altitude, even on a "no wind day", we need to expect this and compensate for it by placing the E point upwind of the target. The windier it is, the farther you need place it be upwind. Eureka!

As for the breakdown of the pattern point in uniform increments, it is essential for a scientific inquiry. It is a math thing.

As for your question regarding the amorphousness of the location of the D point, it is not amorphous at all if you know where you were. If you crossed the windline that transects the target at the correct altitude (1200), you simply notice where you ended up.

Did you land long, or need to make maneuvers (such as S turns ) that prevented this? Your D point was too far upwind of the target. Next jump, make it closer to the target.

If you landed short of the target or needed to rear riser to make it there, or cut off the corner somewhere to prevent yourself from landing short, you were too close to the target. Next jump, make your D point farther upwind of the target.

Wallah!

Brian Germain

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com

[bliston 0]

Thanks for the response, Brian. Yup, I understood that it doesn't change the length of the base leg length, which seems to be the real value in using the "D" point.

I guess I was thinking that to make the landing pattern the most consistent from jump to jump, adjusting only the angle of attack from point C to point B would allow the pilot to stay true to the turn initiation altitudes that you presented (1200, 900, 600, and 300ft.). The other option of changing the B point turn to correct for what you think might put you short or long, without changing your angle of attack, would cause you to have to change and improvise your altitude markers.

Folks would certainly have to be quite practiced with rears, fronts, and toggles to use them safely while watching out for traffic, maintaining altitude awareness, etc., but for those who are versed in those modes of flight, it's seems like angle of attack changes on the downwind leg might be the "cleanest/simplest" way adjust if you think you're gonna be short/long.

I guess then the challenge them becomes hitting the D point right at 1200 feet consistently. I heard someone say once that swoop meets are won and lost at 2500 feet - didn't really make sense to me at the time since people we initiating their final turns at 700 or 800 ft., but now I see the wisdom in the statement.

I really like the precision and simplicity of the model you've presented. I know that my base leg has always been the biggest variable from jump to jump for me - I look forward to putting your idea into practice.

Have a good one and thanks for sharing your ideas,
Ben

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


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