Helicopter and balloon jumping questions from newbie

[motion 0]

This is my first posting here... glad I discoverd such a great resource!

A little background: I have 43 jumps acquired during the last 6 months at Perris and Hawaii and hold an A license. I'm jumping with a Sabre 9 cell 190 in a Javelin 4 container with a Cypres. I'm very comfortable (and very cautious) and have had no alarming incidents, with the exception of hard openings, which I will cover in a moment.

This weekend I plan on attending the Jack Off to Perris boogie at Perris and experiencing the DC-3, a helicopter jump at 5500 feet and a balloon jump (3500 feet?). I would like to inquire about any special considerations or warnings I should heed from other experienced jumpers. As a point of reference, I am always immediately stable when exiting an Otter or Skyvan normally.

About the hard openings. I am not enjoying my openings at all. I've packed myself, using the "roll the nose method'. And have had several others pack my rig. It opens very quickly and very hard compared to the Spectre canopy I've rented in the past. Frankly, I don't look forward to the openings at all and am endeavoring to replace my main as soon as possible with a Spectre 170. Is this normal for a Sabre 190 P3? If it is, why would this canopy be so popular in the sport? It is completely beyond me.

Thanks for any enlightenment and blue skys!!

Wanted to add: Anyone who dives Perris or Elsinore on here? I'm in Laguna Niguel. Wouldn't hurt to meet new people since I'm a newbie!

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

About the hard openings. I am not enjoying my openings at all. I've packed myself, using the "roll the nose method'. And have had several others pack my rig. It opens very quickly and very hard compared to the Spectre canopy I've rented in the past. Frankly, I don't look forward to the openings at all and am endeavoring to replace my main as soon as possible with a Spectre 170. Is this normal for a Sabre 190? If it is, why would this canopy be so popular in the sport? It is completely beyond me.

Have a rigger put a pocket on the slider. No more hard openings. I charge $40.00 for a pocket, installed.

Hook

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Is this normal for a Sabre 190?

Is it an original sabre or a sabre 2? I'll wager it's an original since all the Sabre 2 owners I've meet have mentioned the long snivels as a problem. There are a variety of things that it could be attributed to but I'll give you some of the more probable ones.

1. Your packing: this can effect a lot of things actually

2. rubber bands too big/loose: I've found that by double banding my stows that the openings are less severe

3. roll the nose: 4 cells rolled in, 5th leave alone, remaining cells rolled in. give them about 4 to 5 rolls and leave them. Don't push the nose back into the canopy.

try that for a few jumps and see if your shoes stay on for a few more jumps.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[PhreeZone 14]

I terms of the chopper and Ballon exits, just punch a really hard arch and thats all there is to it. I love Balloon jumps since a choppers wash tends to push you HD if you launch hard. The pure silence of standing on the edge of the basket, hearing your heart pound, the smell of the propane, the twitching from the excitement/nerviousness/enjoyment.... damn I forgot all the good things and wanna jump a balloon again soon I wanna work on my still air aerals next balloon jump.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,384]

1. Take at least a 4-5 second delay out of the helicopter/balloon; make sure you have a kill line or normal PC, not a bungee PC.

2. Expect less opening shock and a longer opening. Expect it to be very hard to get stable if you do not exit stable.

3. Older sabres open hard because PD thought that's what people wanted when they first introduced it. A larger slider, a pocket or longer brake stow settings may help the openings if all else fails. Since these things are cheap ($50) they are worth trying before you spend big bucks on a new canopy.

[pilotdave 0]

I have no clue about that boogie or DZ, but you might wanna call ahead and ask about jump requirements for helicopter and especially balloon jumps. I've typically heard of a B license requirement for helicopters and a C license for balloons. I know cross keys told me 70 jumps with an A license was good enough for them (or 50 with a B) for helicopter jumps. The balloon is a bit more extreme since you jump from lower and have to find your own landing area, so they will likely require a lot more jumps.

Dave

[Rookeskydiver 0]

I believe your right. On the JOTP websiste it clearly states that you must have a B licnese to do a ballon jump

PCSS # 1 Rookeskydiver
"Its a Wonka Bar"....."Go ahead Charlie open it, lets see that golden ticket"

[motion 0]

Yep - Jack has also gently reminded me that I need my B... guess I'll be jumping my brains out this weekend to get my B lined up for the balloons next weekend. Thanks for the advice on the slider mods... I'll have a talk with my rigger and get those going.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

On the opening speed things, what the good guys said above is valid, however you are comparing your sabre to a spectre. Spectres have well reknowned gentle opening characteristics, ie they are by design much more soft on opening than a sabre. So there's bound to be a difference.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Shark 0]

Quote

Yep - Jack has also gently reminded me that I need my B... guess I'll be jumping my brains out this weekend to get my B lined up for the balloons next weekend. Thanks for the advice on the slider mods... I'll have a talk with my rigger and get those going.

You got the water training out of the way?

[TheMonkey 0]

Quote

This is my first posting here...

BEER!

---------------------
Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!

[motion 0]

Not yet... guess I get to jump in the freezing-ass pool this weekend. And anybody who can find me this weekend gets a beer on me, hehe.

[rendezvous 0]

dude you must do the balloon. It's just so amazing.

[councilman24 36]

Your Sabre is opening like a real parachute. The Spectre was a malfunction that cleared.

Seriously I didn't buy a Spectre because it took 700 ft to open, whether at terminal or hop and pop. At at 2000' BSR minimum PACK opening for a C or D license, that's too long. Not that I open there routinely but I want to be able to. If you haven't tried, roll the nose from both sides to the middle (do NOT stuff in center cell). Then roll the tail well both half way down where you nomally do and up at the lines. This make my Sabre 170 acceptable. Then try the other things posted if that doesn't work.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[alan 1]

About the balloon jump, I own a balloon and have around 25 or more jumps. It's a blast. Some things to know.

Just step or fall off, no need to push off, jump or launch really hard.

1st time or two, if you want to stay stable and face to earth, step off and arch but try to stay a little head high at first, otherwise you will flip over.

Back first lauches are REAL fun, especially if you add in a flip or two. You may not be comfortable with this on the first jump, especially if it from only 3500'.

If you are not going alone, be sure to plan for some kind of separation on opening. You may not be stable immediately and that may affect the time and altitude you have for tracking, as well as your airspeed if you have less than a 10 sec delay.

Be aware of the wind direction on the ground where you intend to land before you exit.

Be aware that there may be hidden obstacles/hazards in the landing area. Electric fences, barb wire in a tuft of grass, telephone lines, cactus, etc.

Be careful climbing out of the basket, there are a lot of things on you and the balloon that can be snag hazards.

A cell phone may come in handy in case your chase crew has trouble finding you.

Use a lot of common sense, a little caution and be prepared for one of the most fun times of your life.

alan

[PhreeZone 14]

Alan... as a balloon pilot and owner could you answer this question? I had heard that doing jumps from a balloon is really hard on the envelope, but I've never found proof of that, and I heard it from a first time droper balloonist at WFFC this year. Do you have any info on this?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[andrewstewart 0]

Yes, that is my understanding. I know a commercial balloon pilot who says that depending on the number of people exiting the balloon it will warp and ossillate until it 'settles down' (he was the balloon pilot for the world record balloon jump reported on this site). I'd be surprised if that didn't have a detrimental effect over time...

- Andrew

[diveout 0]

A friend of mine with a current A license made his 34th skydive form a balloon at Eloy in december. The jumps was from 5000 ft and the landing area was huge (desert). He made a solo jump and it was no problem at all, just relaxed and arch.

[alan 1]

Quote

Alan... as a balloon pilot and owner could you answer this question? I had heard that doing jumps from a balloon is really hard on the envelope, but I've never found proof of that, and I heard it from a first time droper balloonist at WFFC this year. Do you have any info on this?

I do not have any published material on stresses put on an envelope specifically from skydiving, but one can easily find a lot on related topics and make some correlations. The weight limits and operating manual tell you most of what you need to know, along with a very basic understanding of some simple physics.

I do know that tethering a balloon on a hot day with winds at or near the max limit for that activity is very hard on it. Warm temps mean higher envelope temp, that is hard on the materials. The wind stresses the gore material, loading tapes, anchor points, uprights........nearly every component of the balloon.

Dropping skydivers? Depends. What is the ambient temp? What is the rated gross weight of the balloon? How close does the load bring it to gross? How hot do you have to get the envelope, different balloons/fabrics have different ratings? How many hours are on the envelope? How many jumpers are leaving at the same time? What is the field elevation and density altitude? The closer you operate a balloon to the limits in its' operations manual, the more you are stressing it by both temperature and load. <------That is the key.

Three jumpers leaving at the same time from a new 120,000 ft3 balloon on a calm 40 degree day that is several hundred pounds below its' gross weight, a hundred degrees below the max envelope temp, and in a 500 ft/min descent, will have little or no impact on the envelope.

Three or four jumpers leaving a 90,000 ft3 balloon at the same time on a 65 degree day, while it is near its' max gross weight, near its' max temp, and in level flight will put relatively more added loads on the envelope. 14 or more jumpers leaving at the same time from a large commercial balloon in a 1000 ft/min decent would certainly stress the fabric and load tapes much more than normal flight.

On a 50 degree day in a 77,500 ft3 envelope that will probably not pass more than one more annual, we can drop one jumper at a time with little or no descent going, and not even feel any rebound. With 2 going at the same time, we use a 500 ft/min descent and the balloon gradually stops desending and will gain 500 to 1000 feet at about 500 ft/min. No big deal. So, it is all realtive and a matter of degrees. No pun intended, it just worked out that way. I hope this helped.

alan

[motion 0]

Great time out at Perris last weekend! No balloon jumps yet (next weekend if I can get my water stuff out of the way). 2 heli jumps from 5,000 feet. Awesome! I tried to prepare myself for the falling sensation on the first jump, but I must tell you that it really took me by surprise. The sense of falling is very acute. No problems with body position. Good freefall for around 7 seconds or so for a 2800' opening, my lowest ever. Great landings with no problems.

Lou - Your advice:

3. roll the nose: 4 cells rolled in, 5th leave alone, remaining cells rolled in. give them about 4 to 5 rolls and leave them. Don't push the nose back into the canopy.

Worked great for me. I definitely noticed a slowing of my openings. Rock on!

[TomAiello 25]

I only have one balloon jump, but I do like to pretend I know how to do a still air exit.
A few thoughts:
1) Think about leading with your chest. You should exit in an arch, but horizontally, not vertically. If you lead with your head, you will likely end up head down.
2) After exit, just hold your arch until you rotate into a stable belly to earth position. It'll seem to take an awfully long time, but it's really only a few seconds. If you panic and pull your head down, you'll start to rotate forward.
3) You can easily practice dead air exits into a swimming pool. Just exit from the side of the pool. If you hit head or chest first, you are overrotating. If you hit feet or knees first, you should be all right.
4) Relax. From a balloon, you have so much altitude it's silly. If you flail on exit, just wait it out and get stable once you have the airflow your comfortable with. You're going to be far worse off pitching from a subterminal flail than you would be getting terminal and stable. Don't panic.
Or, since you will have heaps of freefall time, you could just screw it and throw a twisting quad gainer.
Hope this helps. If not, ignore it.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Guest 1010]

--bump--

good info here, still

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[alan 1]

As long as this thread got bumped, I'll add a few comments about freefall time.

One of the primary thrills of a balloon jump is the first 10 to 15 seconds of freefall. You go from quiet, still air to the sound of terminal velocity. Enjoy the thrill, don't waste it by getting excited and dumping right away. Look up at the balloon as it seems to race away from you. Look at the ground and experience some ground rush. Yup. Many jumpers from the AFF/ISP era have very little experience getting out at altitudes of 3500' or less. For safety reasons, most of todays jumpers prefer to be open by 3000'.

Quite often when jumping a balloon it is not unusual to exit at 3000', even though altitudes of 5000' are very common. Lets say you get out at 3500' and take a nice 10 sec delay to ejoy the whole experience. That has you dumping at 2500', which with many of the newer and more popular canopies today, should have you in the saddle with brakes released by 1700'........which is below the decision altiutude for many jumpers, especially with a "B" license. For a regular skydiver with no base experience, this may get a little scary. Just be current and know what to do. If you have to cut away, get it done because you can burn through several hundred feet trying to fix it, then making the decision to cutaway, and then performing the actual cutaway.

If you are in the saddle at 1700' from a 3500 exit after dumping at 2500' it is fairly normal. A mal discovered at 1700' can get you down to 1200' before you are under a functioning reserve. That doesn't leave much time for finding a good spot to land in an unfamiliar area. Geez, take a 15 sec delay on that same jump and you're at 200' before getting a functioning reserve. If you pilot offers 5000' for altitude, that is great, take it!

Have a pretty good idea of what your intended exit altitude should be. Make sure it is high enough for you to enjoy the thrill of doing what ever you want for the first 10 to 15 secs and still allow you to open at an altitude that is comfortable for you, as skydiver using a skydiving rig. If you are a BASE jumper using BASE equiment, adjust your exit as you are comfortable with.

Make sure you are comfortable with off field land on the canopy you are using. Landing in 3' high unmowed hay on light/no wind day can be tricky on a sub 100 canopy at a 2.4 W/L. Don't even think about soy beans!

Try to experience at least one jump during each of the four seasons. Each offers its' own kind of beauty and challenges. Fun fun fun.

alan

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

This weekend I plan on attending the Jack Off to Perris boogie at Perris and experiencing the DC-3, a helicopter jump at 5500 feet and a balloon jump (3500 feet?).

My advise on the balloon jump... don't take 15sec off of a Balloon at 3000ft... ... it tends to make MJO give you a bunch of sh*t...

[peterk 0]

A question for clarification-

If a balloon is tethered to the ground, is it considered an aircraft for that TSO rig/reserve thingy that some people are worried about? Or can I jump my fixed object equipment?

How hard would it be to winch up and down a 3-4 jumper balloon to 500-1000' feet over and over? Any balloon pilots who want a free ski vacation in Colorado, just bring your balloon...

---------------
Peter
BASE - The Ultimate Victimless Crime