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Optimal time for carving a 180.

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I have just started doing 180 approaches and wanted to know if there is an optimal time to hold the carve for to maximize the power at the bottom end.

I am flying a Sabre2 150 loaded at about 1.3 and have been starting at 580 feet. This requires a really slow turn to make it last all the way down but feels very controlled.

I don't want to have to hang on double fronts for too long after the turn because riser pressure builds very quickly in that flight mode.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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Regardless of what you do when you jump out of an a/c it will take atleast X-amount of seconds for you to reach terminal. This is the same for your canopy; it will take X-amount of seconds of giving power generating input to reach your canopy's terminal speed. You can distribute these seconds over various degrees of turn ( the higher degrees the faster the rate of turn will be). I would not reccomend going for more than a 180 degree turn on your size canopy and w/l (IMHO). If you want to work on getting the most (terminal) energy out of your 180 degree turn realize that this will be a slow rate of turn. Slower rates of turn (for the most part) are harder to do because lift will start generating and it will be hard for you to "keep" this energy and not loose it. Genearly we are able to "keep" the energy by continuing to turn- but since you are only doing 180 it will be hard for you to conitune to turn because you will not have many degrees left. Please undertsand I am not trying to discurage you against the 180 ( I think you should continue to do them) just realize the difficulties. There are "tricks" you could do to maintain the energy- Harness on the inside of the turn and outside front riser will keep you in the turn without accelerating the rate if turn
(it will keep you in a dive).
Go up high and start turning your canopy (giving the same inputs you normaly do to land) and see how many seconds pass before you can no longer hold the fronts-this will be very close to you canopy's terminal speed and so that will be how many seconds you generally want to be in a turn for.
Also realize the faster you let go of the fonts the faster your canopy is going to recover ( think third law of motion) so try and time them so that you are releasing the fonts slowly and so maintaning that energy for longer. Please try to find a good canopy coach and take some lessons. As always these are just my thoughts over years of flying and so would love to hear form others if they have other ideas or comments....

-Blues

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Make it sharper and steeper. Then start lowering your altitude by small increments. Don't go big and say: "..naaah another 250f will do just fine!!!":S

Slow is still pretty fast ;)

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

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there is not a single "optimal time" that will allow you to have a powerful clean swoop every time, just like there is not an "optimal" wingloading or altitude to start your turn. everyones turn is different thus their optimal times are different.

the best way to know if you've done a correct turn is if after the turn you ask yourself "was that turn smooth?", "was i low/high", "did the canopy start to recover to soon/ late", and so on. initially these will be hard questions to answer, but that's where a credible coach/ mentor comes into play.

so unfortunetly the question you ask is not easy to answer without seeing your turn, but in short NO, there is no optimal time.
Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down


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Thanks to you both for your advice.

Stu - I have been getting advice/mentoring from Joe who used to work at Mile-Hi and he's been really helping with advice. I have also done 2 canopy courses with Luigi Cani, but that was before I progressed to 180s.

From what you've both said it sounds like I need to turn slow, smooth and consistent and then when I have that nailed, start bringing it down to where I am getting the plane-out I want.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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I have just started doing 180 approaches and wanted to know if there is an optimal time to hold the carve for to maximize the power at the bottom end.

I am flying a Sabre2 150 loaded at about 1.3 and have been starting at 580 feet. This requires a really slow turn to make it last all the way down but feels very controlled.

I don't want to have to hang on double fronts for too long after the turn because riser pressure builds very quickly in that flight mode.



Do you really have 111jumps and starting to do 180's ?????
Ive got almost 500 jumps and have just barley started messing around with 160-180 degree turns!!

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From what you've both said it sounds like I need to turn slow, smooth and consistent and then when I have that nailed, start bringing it down to where I am getting the plane-out I want.



No, what i'm saying is make sure you continue to get coaching (especially at your jump numbers). But the key to a good turn is being smooth the whole way through, i said nothing about bringing it down lower, let a coach watch you and let you know where to go and what to work on.
edited to add: also, just to let you know i had about 150 jumps before i started doing double fronts, with you at 100 jumps already doing 180's that might be a little quick of a progression so watch yourself carefully. i already saw one person at my dz that fucked himself up doing exactly what you're doing. so be careful!
Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down


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Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, I have low jump numbers and I am being cautious. I also intend to get as much coaching/mentoring as possible. I am really not that interested in freefall and all my jumps are oriented towards canopy flying. I moved from 90's to 180's because I feel they give me more time to adjust the turn in response to the sight picture. In other words I can assess how the turn is going and bail if I need to (a bit like flying the set-up in brakes to slow things down).

I originally deleted my jump numbers when I posted this because I knew that I would get more comments regarding that than actual responses to the question. I appreciate your constructive help (and warnings!), and will leave it at that.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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glad to know you'll continue to get coaching, but please realize that there are things that you need to learn by doing 90's for longer than you have. sure you have more time in the turn to adjust your alitutde and make sure if you're going to bail or not, but if that's the case then why don't all the PRO's tell their students to start with 450's or bigger? please make sure you have all the fundementals down of patterns, flight modes, ect before moving on to the next task in the progression.
Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down


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Yes, I have low jump numbers and I am being cautious.



Heard that one before. The fact that you have to explain that to people might mean that you're not being as cautious as you think.

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I also intend to get as much coaching/mentoring as possible.



I intend to win the lottery next week, can I borrow $10,000?

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I am really not that interested in freefall and all my jumps are oriented towards canopy flying



Unless you have found a way to make more than one landing per jump, then you jump numbers are your jump numbers.

Every jump is a canopy control jump. Every jump includes left turns, right turns, accuracy and a flare. Just because you want it to mean more than that, doesn't mean that it does. One jump is one jump.

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I originally deleted my jump numbers when I posted this



You don't see this as a red flag?

You're the poster child for an accident waiting to happen. I don't need to see you fly or meet to know that. You enganged in deceptive practices in an attempt to squeeze advice from those you knew wouldn't tell you what you wanted to hear if you were completely forthcoming with your experiecne.

Additionally, your 'thoery' that quickly moving past 90s into 180s is retarded, and another great illustration of what a bad postion you're putting yourself in.

Do yourself, and everyone at your DZ, a favor and re-evalute the choices you've made. Take a step back, and slow down. Rushing into anything in skydiving has never worked out well.

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and to add to that think of these two statements and take a step backwards before bad things happen...(I wish some of my friends had heard these)

1. take your time you have the rest of your life to skydive
2. In order to become a great swooper you have to survive

We arent trying to keep you down man, the progression is the same for 99.9% of the people, I spent a 200 jumps on 90s before I went to 180s, then I spent 400 jumps on 180s before I went to 270s now I am still on 270s

shit man I busted myself up on a 90 degree turn, oh yeah and I thought I was special and different and that people were just going to come down on me and damn they did and you know what fucking up hurts a lot.

Metal sucks

and to everyone else here who has posted like this over and over again ...

how many times are we going to have to post the same thing over and over and over I hate to say it but I am starting to get a case of the fuckits, let these idiots pound into the ground and fucking die, cant save the people that are too good to listen to people who have seen this shit over and over again and seen what it does not only to that person but their families and friends... fuck em.

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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My sentiments exaclty.......But Common Sense still has to prevail and that needs to come from those with more experience.

There was this one guy at my DZ who was ignoring everyone's advice, and downsizing rapidly without the experience to support those decisions.

I walked over to him while he was packing up his 1.6 loaded Crossfire 135 and started disconnecting his risers. He jumped up and said what the Hell are you doing?

I said.........I've heard your the shit around here with swooping so I'm hooking you up with my JVX. Then he said Ohhh, Cool what size is it? So I told him its a 99 JVX, and if he lands it once I'll hook up my buddy's 77 JVX.

He looked at me with this look of reality in his face, and said, "I don't think I'm quite Ready for this yet, but Thanks".

I looked at him and asked, "Are you sure ???, I heard you were in a hurry to Kill Yourself, so I wanted to help".

We laughed and hooked up his original 170. I haven't been around lately.........Hopefully he's still jumping it.

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I have recently offered free coaching to someone in exchange for them demoing a different canopy, they took me up on it. And then I actually asked them to step back another step and get an entirely different canopy in order to become a good swooper (aka stay alive). I think he was receptive to that after I told them about 25 different stories of people I knew that were talented but didnt listen while we were on a weather hold.

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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I have just started doing 180 approaches and wanted to know if there is an optimal time to hold the carve for to maximize the power at the bottom end.

I am flying a Sabre2 150 loaded at about 1.3 and have been starting at 580 feet. This requires a really slow turn to make it last all the way down but feels very controlled.

I don't want to have to hang on double fronts for too long after the turn because riser pressure builds very quickly in that flight mode.



In my honest opinion which is based off personal experience, 180's are stupid. There's another thread on here where i went off on a guy braggin about his 180's on a Stiletto... which is exactly what I was doing when I pounded in. At least you're on a Sabre, it will translate better to other canopies if you make it far enough to change canopies.

180's don't really allow you to see your intended landing area in your setup as well as other turns, therefore developing a sight reference is much harder, especially for someone with 100 jumps. I think you are currently making a string of horrible decisions that are formulating an equation for a very painful and/or embarrassing lesson.

I won't tell you not to do them, you're still going to... I just don't look forward to reading about it. I hope you get lucky, man. (I did, i got to walk away from my pounding)
It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

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180's are stupid. ... which is exactly what I was doing when I pounded in .... I won't tell you not to do them, you're still going to ..... I hope you get lucky, man. (I did, i got to walk away from my pounding)

Do you find it that as soon as you tell your "success story" and give (what to me is questionable) advice you lose quite a bit of credibility?

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While 180's are the LEAST favorable part of canopy piloting progression (to me) they are, as Frost pointed out, an essential step.

I do not recommend skipping them. Additionally I DO recommend you get good, consistent, coaching if you're going to move forward in the high performance arena.

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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I was going to let this thread fade away as I was getting the usual shit from some people instead of an answer to my posted question, but since you have genuinely tried to help - thank you.

I understand the negative aspects of 180s, and usually land either on my own after a Hop n' Pop or on the alternate landing area across the runway where nobody else lands. My accuracy is fine and I have taken 2 canopy control courses and have a pro-swooper at the DZ who is willing to give advice and watches my landings. I leave my self "outs" and am prepared to use them. I consistently plane out high at the moment, but am adjusting my turn-rate rather than initiation altitude to overcome that issue (hence my original question). This is an issue I had with 90s until I got some video coaching and I know that the answer is not just to start lower.

I appreciate the concern, but I am not an 18 year old hotshot (I am in my late 30's but how could you all know that) and I fully understand that in a face-off between my body and the planet - I will lose. I also pounded in, bounced and walked away - it gave me a whole lot of respect for gravity and I learned from it.

Perhaps I should not have even started this thread, because I found the answer to my question by re-reading Brian Germain's book (TPAIP). However, it's a pretty shitty thing when someone with a genuine question feels like they shouldn't ask because of the tone of some of the replies. Is that what this forum is for?

To the people who have posted constructively - thanks again.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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in response to this, I dont care if you are an 18 year old hotshot or an 80 year old grandpa, you dont have enough jumps to have a full sight picture to do what you are trying to do.

Once again, I am not trying to just push you down, but I know then story, I have heard it from people your age, from people who are 18 from combat veterens saying they have a better stress handling mechanism, most of them have metal or graves.

And for me it is 5-7 seconds loaded at WL's of 1.4-2.3,changes in turn rates and steepness and types of canopies and altitude I got to my initiation point, there is a lot that goes into it and you learn them over time by LANDING.

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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I am not an 18 year old hotshot



Oh really? Well you sure sound like one when you say this -

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it's a pretty shitty thing when someone with a genuine question feels like they shouldn't ask because of the tone of some of the replies.



A mature person, with an understadning of what they were doing, would realize that when you ask a question and the majority of responses are not what you wanted to hear, or contrary to your position, that maybe you are the one who is wrong and not those answering your question.

To suggest that because you didn't recieve the answer you want that the forum is somehow suspect is amazingly arrogant and shortsighted. The very reason you turned to this forum for answers, that being the large cross-section of highly experienced jumpers, is the same reason you should be re-directing your critical gaze not the forum, but at your situation.

In this case, it is to your dis-advantage that you are not an 18 year old hotshot. An 18 year old has a MUCH better chance of coming back from a broken femur and a shattered pelvis than person in their late 30's. My only hope is that you are a single person without children or other dependetns as you are on the road to creating serious hardship and pain for those around you.

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Thanks for the answer, Dave. Brian Germain's number was 4-6 seconds so that fits right in there.

In no way am I trying to imply that I do have a full sight picture - but the only way I'm going to get one is to jump more (and not die).
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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In no way am I trying to imply that I do have a full sight picture - but the only way I'm going to get one is to jump more (and not die).



Dying really shouldn't be at the top of your list of worries. It's far more common to just fuck yourself up for 6 months to a year (if you're lucky).

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Thanks for the answer, Dave. Brian Germain's number was 4-6 seconds so that fits right in there.

In no way am I trying to imply that I do have a full sight picture - but the only way I'm going to get one is to jump more (and not die).



I think what might be missed by the lack of physical interaction on this board is that we are trying to look out for you, the recommendation from everyone here who has seen a lot of shit go down is that you reevaluate the turn that you are doing and go back a few steps... I am wired pretty good myself and have still fucked up, it made me teachable, what we are trying to do is save you the hassle of being in pain.

I would say that every one here that has said woah buddy has participated in comps in one form or another, whether competing or judging, and would love to see you progress in a fashion that is aligned with the amount of jumps you have so that you can work out the kinks on your way to the bigger turns, every part of the turn that you work on leads into the next turn that you work on, so if you skip over nineties in a cursory manner, it will cause you to spend some time high jacking on your 180s, if you skip over your 180s, it will screw up your 270s and so on.....

so I would recommend that you spend some time perfecting your 90s, get those so you can hit a swoop lane (perhaps made of baby orange cones) and then....think about 180s it will help you a lot more than jumping on 180s and not having that experience.

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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Thanks again, Dave.

I can hit the swoop course when it's up (it's made of pool noodles). However, I will ask my local coaches if they think stepping back to 90s is going to help me.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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Without having seen you fly, I can say this:

Having a STRONG foundation will always help you.

Oftentimes, when training students, I end up breaking them down to the basics and rebuilding them back up again.

You can only build on a crap foundation for so long.

If your numbers are accurate (profile wise), I believe you'll benefit more in the long run from really focusing on building that foundation.

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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Oh really? Well you sure sound like one when you say this -

Quote

it's a pretty shitty thing when someone with a genuine question feels like they shouldn't ask because of the tone of some of the replies.



A mature person, with an understadning of what they were doing, would realize that when you ask a question and the majority of responses are not what you wanted to hear, or contrary to your position, that maybe you are the one who is wrong and not those answering your question.



Dude - the issue is that people were replying to a question that I didn't ask!

I do respect your opinion that I am not ready for 180s, but equally I realize that you are basing that opinion on never having seen me fly.

Thanks for trying to do what you believe to be best for me.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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