frost 1 #26 August 20, 2009 right. LOL you missed my point COMPLETELY. as i have already pointed out, some people are incapable of comprehending simple thoughts expressed online. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #27 August 20, 2009 Ok you guys - let's cut it out. Remember, both of you, this isn't personal. Stick to discussing the video, or it's contents. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kj126 0 #28 August 20, 2009 Being critical is always easy from the side lines.. The intial point was to show how so many need more mentoring and training to be not only at a experienced level, but also at a safe one. Can't reference the vid at work but have seen my share of said botched attempts... But how stale would the sport be without pushing the boundries,some would have use only do patterned landing under large canopies (scared say it) but gaining experience through proper actions can keep the adrenaline flowing and the sport progressing. Im one of the biggest advocates of "Don't tell me how to live". But in the same breathe, hey yall watch this, is probably not the best course of action. Anytime someone gets injured or busted up there are those that say it should be banned., bullshit!!!!!!!!! All the procedures are out there and its up to those INDIVIDUALS to follow them. my 2 cents- govern yourself and not the group. I Am Sofa King We Todd Did!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #29 August 20, 2009 If you don't like where I land, stay out of the tent! *** now thats the best one liner I have read on dz.com in quite a while!!! the swoops that went bad and took the jumpers into the spectators had me cringing though... (and rewinding) Roy They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #30 August 20, 2009 Quote right. LOL you missed my point COMPLETELY. as i have already pointed out, some people are incapable of comprehending simple thoughts expressed online. Actually YOU don't get it. I never repsonded to your simple "expressed thoughts". I was commenting on what I saw - nothing more, nothing less. A bit too serious, dude.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TAXIWAY 0 #31 August 24, 2009 half of those guys have no business in any swoop comp. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Helmut 0 #32 August 24, 2009 BEST swoop video I have ever seen!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JPWoerner 0 #33 September 9, 2009 4:47 into the video... Would've been great if he actually swooped his reserve! That would be true dedication to a competition!!! (I know how stupid that is... so don't even bother commenting!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mircan 0 #34 September 9, 2009 you mean like this...dudeist skydiver #42 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #35 September 9, 2009 Quote4:47 into the video... Would've been great if he actually swooped his reserve! That would be true dedication to a competition!!! (I know how stupid that is... so don't even bother commenting!) Whats wrong with swooping a reserve ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Metekanya 0 #36 September 22, 2009 I am sure most of the pilots in the video were really convinced they actually could swoop quite well and could not understand what had happened to them. I think this is a perfect example of how a comp is something COMPLETELY different than swooping in a wide open landing area. These guys found out only when their butts where on land. What the hell, in the videos it looks so easy!!! We cannot just say "its only them, that are bad". I guess that I am not too wrong when I say that good swooping is not enough to enter comps safely. Preparation is necessary, and avoiding the attitude of trying to hit the entry gate at any cost. Its a message to all of us who are little by little learning the art of swooping. On the other hand I must reccon that after seeing that all of them end up all right, it's a good laugh!Quote Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BMFin 0 #37 September 22, 2009 Quote I think this is a perfect example of how a comp is something COMPLETELY different than swooping in a wide open landing area. These guys found out only when their butts where on land. What the hell, in the videos it looks so easy!!! To me the main reason looks to be the fact that the course was set to a rather strong downwind. Unless you really have practiced swooping downwind, it is very common to end up too low in the end of the recovery since the plane out looks a lot different when going downwind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites timmyfitz 0 #38 September 23, 2009 QuoteQuote I think this is a perfect example of how a comp is something COMPLETELY different than swooping in a wide open landing area. These guys found out only when their butts where on land. What the hell, in the videos it looks so easy!!! To me the main reason looks to be the fact that the course was set to a rather strong downwind. Unless you really have practiced swooping downwind, it is very common to end up too low in the end of the recovery since the plane out looks a lot different when going downwind. Could you explain your thinking. Yes, you would be going faster across the ground but why do you think the plane out would look different? And why would a downwind cause you to be low? Just curious. I guess I'm just not getting what you are trying to say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BMFin 0 #39 September 23, 2009 Quote Could you explain your thinking. Yes, you would be going faster across the ground but why do you think the plane out would look different? And why would a downwind cause you to be low? Just curious. I guess I'm just not getting what you are trying to say. I will try. When the recovery phase happens into the wind the ground speed is lower than what it is on zero wind for example. This causes the visual reference to look different on different winds. Swooper should always adjust the plane out phase according to visual reference. (how the ground looks like -> how fast you are moving relative to the ground and how high you are relative to the ground) Now, most swoopers are accustomed to handle the variation between "zero wind conditions" and stronger "into the wind conditions". Not that many are trained to adjust their recovery based on the visual references relative to the ground on "downwind conditions" and this causes problems when occasionally swooping downwind. To simplyfie this, think of a swooper adjusting his recovery in the end on a strong downwind. At 30 feet he feels he is going very fast horizontally and therefore it seems to him that he is at the very end of the recovery and already almost totally planed out. However the reason for this ground speed is that the downwind factor is generating more groundspeed and in reality he is not yet in the end of the recovery as the pilot seems to think. This often causes a pilot to end up low on downwind conditions. I may not be able to verbalize my self in the most explicit way, since english is not my 1st language. Maby some of the other ppl in this forum can also help explain this in a more simple way ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hparrish 0 #40 September 23, 2009 I don't think I feel this way at all...........I'm not following the logic either. Most of my landings are down wind, and it never causes me to be lower than into the wind or Zero Wind landings. Your sight picture should be ahead of where you are landing............not the ground. If you focus on the ground thats where your going to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BMFin 0 #41 September 23, 2009 QuoteI don't think I feel this way at all...........I'm not following the logic either. To be honest Im suprised that there are people flying >2.0 WL without ever giving this a thought... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mircan 0 #42 September 23, 2009 Quote ... To simplyfie this, think of a swooper adjusting his recovery in the end on a strong downwind. At 30 feet he feels he is going very fast horizontally and therefore it seems to him that he is at the very end of the recovery and already almost totally planed out. However the reason for this ground speed is that the downwind factor is generating more groundspeed and in reality he is not yet in the end of the recovery as the pilot seems to think. This often causes a pilot to end up low on downwind conditions. I may not be able to verbalize my self in the most explicit way, since english is not my 1st language. Maby some of the other ppl in this forum can also help explain this in a more simple way ? I don`t know if you`re right or it was just stupid me, but I crashed (see avatar) after 90deg downwind landing trying to hit the gates. Low, downwind, gates, high temperature... ...oh and me thinking i had skilzz (not mad, just skillz). dudeist skydiver #42 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #43 September 23, 2009 Actually, you are right BMFin - this is something that happens to a lot of pilots without them even realizing it. HOWEVER, in my experience, I've found downwind to cause people to flare high, and strong headwinds to cause people to flare low (or in the case of HP pilots, cause them to dive longer than necessary because they think they're higher than they really are). Either way, wind conditions skew a pilots perceptions. edit for clarification: I am NOT saying that the canopy flies differently, I am saying that the pilots perception of what is happening changes and causes them to fly in a different manner than expected. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BMFin 0 #44 September 23, 2009 Quote HOWEVER, in my experience, I've found downwind to cause people to flare high, and strong headwinds to cause people to flare low (or in the case of HP pilots, cause them to dive longer than necessary because they think they're higher than they really are). I respectfully disagree on this part. I still think that downwind causes people to end up low and headwind causes people ending up high. In other words, when landing downwind, if the recovery looks the same when landing headwind you are already too low.. When landing downwind the visual should reseble more to the visual of ending up too high on headwind. Dont you agree ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #45 September 23, 2009 QuoteDont you agree ? Nope. Reread my post. I can only go off of my experiences. So far they are not what you relate to. I'm not saying you're wrong, your experiences are different. They don't match mine, however. Not right, or wrong, just different. Also, I can see pilots making that decision based on your description - in my experience though the ground track is slower for them so they feel they're too high and wait for appropriate input. Regardless, again, I AM saying that conditions effect pilots input. We are in agreement for the most part. IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ficus 0 #46 September 23, 2009 Quote I respectfully disagree on this part. I still think that downwind causes people to end up low and headwind causes people ending up high. Maybe this is better stated as "downwind causes people to think they are higher than they really are" (and vice versa for headwinds). Obviously doing a downwinder does not cause you to be low. But it does increase your ground track in a way that makes the sight picture very similar to a later phase of the recovery arc -- basically, planeout. Which can cause you to miscalculate your approach. QuoteIn other words, when landing downwind, if the recovery looks the same when landing headwind you are already too low.. When landing downwind the visual should reseble more to the visual of ending up too high on headwind. Dont you agree ? I think this is exactly right. Let he who has not whalewatched in a 20mph headwind cast the first stone :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hparrish 0 #47 September 23, 2009 Quote I am NOT saying that the canopy flies differently, I am saying that the pilots perception of what is happening changes and causes them to fly in a different manner than expected. I agree with this statement. The way I'm reading it........BMF is saying that Wind conditions actually impact the flight characteristics of a canopy and the pilot may be unaware of the impact of the wind. Where you are stating that Ground speed is impacting their judgement. Those are two completely different statements. My points more along this line are twofold: 1.) You should not be adjusting the altitude of your turn to compensate for wind conditions. It should be consistant regardless of Headwind, Crosswind, or Downwind landings. My 270's for example are always initiated at 800 ft, regardless of which direction I'm landing. 2.) Your primary focus should not be on a target such as gates, but further down the course where you intend to fly and ultimately land. If you have your turn and timing worked out you will hit the gates. you need to be focusing beyond where you are. Target fixation is why a lot of folks get hurt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BMFin 0 #48 September 23, 2009 Quote The way I'm reading it........BMF is saying that Wind conditions actually impact the flight characteristics of a canopy and the pilot may be unaware of the impact of the wind. What makes you say so ? This is not what I have said. Please quote my words if you feel that this was my words.. Quote 1.) You should not be adjusting the altitude of your turn to compensate for wind conditions. It should be consistant regardless of Headwind, Crosswind, or Downwind landings. My 270's for example are always initiated at 800 ft, regardless of which direction I'm landing. Yes. Wind doesnt affect the optimal initiation altitude. Wind however affects the planeout picture and may easily cause the pilot to keep the canopy diving longer/less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hparrish 0 #49 September 23, 2009 QuoteQuote The way I'm reading it........BMF is saying that Wind conditions actually impact the flight characteristics of a canopy and the pilot may be unaware of the impact of the wind. What makes you say so ? This is not what I have said. Please quote my words if you feel that this was my words.. Quote "However the reason for this ground speed is that the downwind factor is generating more groundspeed and in reality he is not yet in the end of the recovery as the pilot seems to think. This often causes a pilot to end up low on downwind conditions." "I still think that downwind causes people to end up low and headwind causes people ending up high". These Quotes are what I based my views from. QuoteQuote 1.) You should not be adjusting the altitude of your turn to compensate for wind conditions. It should be consistant regardless of Headwind, Crosswind, or Downwind landings. My 270's for example are always initiated at 800 ft, regardless of which direction I'm landing. Yes. Wind doesnt affect the optimal initiation altitude. Wind however affects the planeout picture and may easily cause the pilot to keep the canopy diving longer/less. My second point also applies.......If you are only focusing on the turn and the flare (Plane out), and not focusing on where you are flying. then in my opinion you are fixating on a target. IE......The gates, ground, directly below you. There's more to swooping than your dive, turn, and flare. You should also know where you intend to fly and land. My point is that taget fixation.......especially on the pond or on a course; causese folks to go low more often than folks understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BMFin 0 #50 September 23, 2009 Quote "However the reason for this ground speed is that the downwind factor is generating more groundspeed and in reality he is not yet in the end of the recovery as the pilot seems to think. This often causes a pilot to end up low on downwind conditions." This is the Quote that I based my views from. yes this is how I see it. Nowhere in this i way that "wind conditions impact the flight harasteristics of a canopy" like you interpreted. It is that the wind conditions impact on the ground speed of the canopy, not the flight charasteristics of the canopy. What was said about the target fixation, I basically agree. But this is another topic IMO and isnt exatcly relevant with the question of how the wind component affects the visual of the recovery.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
BMFin 0 #37 September 22, 2009 Quote I think this is a perfect example of how a comp is something COMPLETELY different than swooping in a wide open landing area. These guys found out only when their butts where on land. What the hell, in the videos it looks so easy!!! To me the main reason looks to be the fact that the course was set to a rather strong downwind. Unless you really have practiced swooping downwind, it is very common to end up too low in the end of the recovery since the plane out looks a lot different when going downwind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #38 September 23, 2009 QuoteQuote I think this is a perfect example of how a comp is something COMPLETELY different than swooping in a wide open landing area. These guys found out only when their butts where on land. What the hell, in the videos it looks so easy!!! To me the main reason looks to be the fact that the course was set to a rather strong downwind. Unless you really have practiced swooping downwind, it is very common to end up too low in the end of the recovery since the plane out looks a lot different when going downwind. Could you explain your thinking. Yes, you would be going faster across the ground but why do you think the plane out would look different? And why would a downwind cause you to be low? Just curious. I guess I'm just not getting what you are trying to say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #39 September 23, 2009 Quote Could you explain your thinking. Yes, you would be going faster across the ground but why do you think the plane out would look different? And why would a downwind cause you to be low? Just curious. I guess I'm just not getting what you are trying to say. I will try. When the recovery phase happens into the wind the ground speed is lower than what it is on zero wind for example. This causes the visual reference to look different on different winds. Swooper should always adjust the plane out phase according to visual reference. (how the ground looks like -> how fast you are moving relative to the ground and how high you are relative to the ground) Now, most swoopers are accustomed to handle the variation between "zero wind conditions" and stronger "into the wind conditions". Not that many are trained to adjust their recovery based on the visual references relative to the ground on "downwind conditions" and this causes problems when occasionally swooping downwind. To simplyfie this, think of a swooper adjusting his recovery in the end on a strong downwind. At 30 feet he feels he is going very fast horizontally and therefore it seems to him that he is at the very end of the recovery and already almost totally planed out. However the reason for this ground speed is that the downwind factor is generating more groundspeed and in reality he is not yet in the end of the recovery as the pilot seems to think. This often causes a pilot to end up low on downwind conditions. I may not be able to verbalize my self in the most explicit way, since english is not my 1st language. Maby some of the other ppl in this forum can also help explain this in a more simple way ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hparrish 0 #40 September 23, 2009 I don't think I feel this way at all...........I'm not following the logic either. Most of my landings are down wind, and it never causes me to be lower than into the wind or Zero Wind landings. Your sight picture should be ahead of where you are landing............not the ground. If you focus on the ground thats where your going to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #41 September 23, 2009 QuoteI don't think I feel this way at all...........I'm not following the logic either. To be honest Im suprised that there are people flying >2.0 WL without ever giving this a thought... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mircan 0 #42 September 23, 2009 Quote ... To simplyfie this, think of a swooper adjusting his recovery in the end on a strong downwind. At 30 feet he feels he is going very fast horizontally and therefore it seems to him that he is at the very end of the recovery and already almost totally planed out. However the reason for this ground speed is that the downwind factor is generating more groundspeed and in reality he is not yet in the end of the recovery as the pilot seems to think. This often causes a pilot to end up low on downwind conditions. I may not be able to verbalize my self in the most explicit way, since english is not my 1st language. Maby some of the other ppl in this forum can also help explain this in a more simple way ? I don`t know if you`re right or it was just stupid me, but I crashed (see avatar) after 90deg downwind landing trying to hit the gates. Low, downwind, gates, high temperature... ...oh and me thinking i had skilzz (not mad, just skillz). dudeist skydiver #42 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #43 September 23, 2009 Actually, you are right BMFin - this is something that happens to a lot of pilots without them even realizing it. HOWEVER, in my experience, I've found downwind to cause people to flare high, and strong headwinds to cause people to flare low (or in the case of HP pilots, cause them to dive longer than necessary because they think they're higher than they really are). Either way, wind conditions skew a pilots perceptions. edit for clarification: I am NOT saying that the canopy flies differently, I am saying that the pilots perception of what is happening changes and causes them to fly in a different manner than expected. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #44 September 23, 2009 Quote HOWEVER, in my experience, I've found downwind to cause people to flare high, and strong headwinds to cause people to flare low (or in the case of HP pilots, cause them to dive longer than necessary because they think they're higher than they really are). I respectfully disagree on this part. I still think that downwind causes people to end up low and headwind causes people ending up high. In other words, when landing downwind, if the recovery looks the same when landing headwind you are already too low.. When landing downwind the visual should reseble more to the visual of ending up too high on headwind. Dont you agree ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #45 September 23, 2009 QuoteDont you agree ? Nope. Reread my post. I can only go off of my experiences. So far they are not what you relate to. I'm not saying you're wrong, your experiences are different. They don't match mine, however. Not right, or wrong, just different. Also, I can see pilots making that decision based on your description - in my experience though the ground track is slower for them so they feel they're too high and wait for appropriate input. Regardless, again, I AM saying that conditions effect pilots input. We are in agreement for the most part. IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ficus 0 #46 September 23, 2009 Quote I respectfully disagree on this part. I still think that downwind causes people to end up low and headwind causes people ending up high. Maybe this is better stated as "downwind causes people to think they are higher than they really are" (and vice versa for headwinds). Obviously doing a downwinder does not cause you to be low. But it does increase your ground track in a way that makes the sight picture very similar to a later phase of the recovery arc -- basically, planeout. Which can cause you to miscalculate your approach. QuoteIn other words, when landing downwind, if the recovery looks the same when landing headwind you are already too low.. When landing downwind the visual should reseble more to the visual of ending up too high on headwind. Dont you agree ? I think this is exactly right. Let he who has not whalewatched in a 20mph headwind cast the first stone :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hparrish 0 #47 September 23, 2009 Quote I am NOT saying that the canopy flies differently, I am saying that the pilots perception of what is happening changes and causes them to fly in a different manner than expected. I agree with this statement. The way I'm reading it........BMF is saying that Wind conditions actually impact the flight characteristics of a canopy and the pilot may be unaware of the impact of the wind. Where you are stating that Ground speed is impacting their judgement. Those are two completely different statements. My points more along this line are twofold: 1.) You should not be adjusting the altitude of your turn to compensate for wind conditions. It should be consistant regardless of Headwind, Crosswind, or Downwind landings. My 270's for example are always initiated at 800 ft, regardless of which direction I'm landing. 2.) Your primary focus should not be on a target such as gates, but further down the course where you intend to fly and ultimately land. If you have your turn and timing worked out you will hit the gates. you need to be focusing beyond where you are. Target fixation is why a lot of folks get hurt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #48 September 23, 2009 Quote The way I'm reading it........BMF is saying that Wind conditions actually impact the flight characteristics of a canopy and the pilot may be unaware of the impact of the wind. What makes you say so ? This is not what I have said. Please quote my words if you feel that this was my words.. Quote 1.) You should not be adjusting the altitude of your turn to compensate for wind conditions. It should be consistant regardless of Headwind, Crosswind, or Downwind landings. My 270's for example are always initiated at 800 ft, regardless of which direction I'm landing. Yes. Wind doesnt affect the optimal initiation altitude. Wind however affects the planeout picture and may easily cause the pilot to keep the canopy diving longer/less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hparrish 0 #49 September 23, 2009 QuoteQuote The way I'm reading it........BMF is saying that Wind conditions actually impact the flight characteristics of a canopy and the pilot may be unaware of the impact of the wind. What makes you say so ? This is not what I have said. Please quote my words if you feel that this was my words.. Quote "However the reason for this ground speed is that the downwind factor is generating more groundspeed and in reality he is not yet in the end of the recovery as the pilot seems to think. This often causes a pilot to end up low on downwind conditions." "I still think that downwind causes people to end up low and headwind causes people ending up high". These Quotes are what I based my views from. QuoteQuote 1.) You should not be adjusting the altitude of your turn to compensate for wind conditions. It should be consistant regardless of Headwind, Crosswind, or Downwind landings. My 270's for example are always initiated at 800 ft, regardless of which direction I'm landing. Yes. Wind doesnt affect the optimal initiation altitude. Wind however affects the planeout picture and may easily cause the pilot to keep the canopy diving longer/less. My second point also applies.......If you are only focusing on the turn and the flare (Plane out), and not focusing on where you are flying. then in my opinion you are fixating on a target. IE......The gates, ground, directly below you. There's more to swooping than your dive, turn, and flare. You should also know where you intend to fly and land. My point is that taget fixation.......especially on the pond or on a course; causese folks to go low more often than folks understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BMFin 0 #50 September 23, 2009 Quote "However the reason for this ground speed is that the downwind factor is generating more groundspeed and in reality he is not yet in the end of the recovery as the pilot seems to think. This often causes a pilot to end up low on downwind conditions." This is the Quote that I based my views from. yes this is how I see it. Nowhere in this i way that "wind conditions impact the flight harasteristics of a canopy" like you interpreted. It is that the wind conditions impact on the ground speed of the canopy, not the flight charasteristics of the canopy. What was said about the target fixation, I basically agree. But this is another topic IMO and isnt exatcly relevant with the question of how the wind component affects the visual of the recovery.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
BMFin 0 #50 September 23, 2009 Quote "However the reason for this ground speed is that the downwind factor is generating more groundspeed and in reality he is not yet in the end of the recovery as the pilot seems to think. This often causes a pilot to end up low on downwind conditions." This is the Quote that I based my views from. yes this is how I see it. Nowhere in this i way that "wind conditions impact the flight harasteristics of a canopy" like you interpreted. It is that the wind conditions impact on the ground speed of the canopy, not the flight charasteristics of the canopy. What was said about the target fixation, I basically agree. But this is another topic IMO and isnt exatcly relevant with the question of how the wind component affects the visual of the recovery.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
