0
buff

Double front problem

Recommended Posts

So this weekend I decided to carve a 90deg turn to final on my Pilot 150 after doing alot of double front stuff since I got this canopy.

I held out to be last down and started the turn to final at 400' so that when I came out of the carve, I would still be high and use double fronts. I held the fronts but the wing started "bucking". It was like on my Sabre before I let out some brake lines. I know my brakes are not deflecting the tail, so I let up the fronts and gave up on it and it recovered at about 35' and I just landed normally.

Tried it on a subsequent jump and the same thing. I remember Curt saying in the canopy course that when you induce speed, you only will get so much per design; canopy terminal veocity.

Did my carve cause me to reach canopy terminal and the bucking come from the lift being generated opposed to me trying to keep it diving? I'm only loading it at 1.3 and winds were about 3-5 kts, but have not experienced this when I just turn final using a toggle turn and then go to double fronts. Any ideas?
It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can just about promise you that you weren't at the top speed of that canopy doing a 90 to doubles. I would lean more towards checking your line trim and double checking your control line length. When changing turns and adding double fronts, its easy to deflect more then you had in the past.

I used to have a heatwave 170 and I found that I just couldn't make it go any faster. Tossing 270s I found that the already short recovery arc was now non-existent. The canopy would recover as the front riser was being pulled out of my grip. That is more indicative of topping out a canopy, buffeting is more a function of something not flying right.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks Dave. I'll double check the lengths this week and maybe just go back to learning this on my Sabre 170 since I know the trim and control lines are set up right on it.
It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
First off, I agree with the other Dave, you need a little more steering line. Just beacuse you can use double fronts without a problem, the higher speeds you can reach by doing turns may be revealing a problem.

Second, and more importantly (I think) if you're trying to learn to swoop, switching between two different model and size canopies is a big mistake. The lack of consistancy from one canopy to the other will present an obstacle to your learning, and possibly put you at risk. A manuver that might be safe on your Sabre could put you in a dangerous position if you tried it with your Pilot.

I would suggest that you jump one canopy as your primary, and use the other as a back up and avoid swooping the back up canopy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It sounds like you did a 90* turn too high and were trying to keep the speed using double fronts. On a canopy like the Pilot this can be very hard to do as you're fighting the recovery arc, and the riser pressure will increase dramatically. Perhaps this "fighting the recovery arc" is causing the bucking.

On a canopy with a shorter recovery arc, you should come out of your turn and recover naturally (or with a little brakes). If you need to use double frotns after, you're loosing speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
First off, you replied to my post, and I am not one with the Pilot problem.

Second, if you read the original post, you'd clearly see that this was the first 90 he had done, and was intentionally high and going to double fronts. While this is not the ideal method, it is a conservative way to get into making turns onto final.

Your suggestion that he should 'recover naturally' and that he's 'losing speed' is short sighted and way off base. Please avoid giving advice about high performance canopy flight until you yourself have established a level of proficiency.

Parroting things you heard on the DZ, been told on the DZ, or read about on the internet is a sure fire way to end up giving bad advice. Each situation is unique, and requires a complete understanding in order to give the correct guidance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


A manuver that might be safe on your Sabre could put you in a dangerous position if you tried it with your Pilot.

I would suggest that you jump one canopy as your primary, and use the other as a back up and avoid swooping the back up canopy.



I downsized to the pilot and jump it as my primary. I was learning on my Sabre and was up to carving turns and then I went to the Pilot and had to start from scratch.

I'm not switching between the two trying to learn HP landings. The Sabre is in a rig I just use for RW jumps. I just ment that I "could" go back to it for swoop learning if the Pilot won't work as well.

I may have put enough on the the Pilot to need to adjust the control lines. I'll go up and pull at 5 and do the drill to check it and adjust them.

...And yea, I did do it intentionally high because I don't feel like breaking myself. Conservative is better and I generally know whose CC forum advice is good and whose ain't. Most of the stuff that doesn't need salt comes from dudes whose name begins with either a D or an I.:)
It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Your suggestion that he should 'recover naturally' and that he's 'losing speed' is short sighted and way off base. Please avoid giving advice about high performance canopy flight until you yourself have established a level of proficiency.

Parroting things you heard on the DZ, been told on the DZ, or read about on the internet is a sure fire way to end up giving bad advice. Each situation is unique, and requires a complete understanding in order to give the correct guidance.



I did not read it clearly to see that it was his first 90* turn, you're right.

Would a more conservative method not be starting with 45* turns? I thought the safer/standard progression was fronts, 45*, 90*, 135*, etc?

Paroting...ok.

Considering I've experience what he's talking about, I wouldn't exactly say I'm paroting anything. I have been told the same thing from local mentors and had similar experience.

I've been doing 90* turns for the past 150 jumps and on a similar canopy and similar loading. Please do not undermine me just because I am less experienced than you.

This is not meant as an attack as I fully respect you, and expect the same.

If you'd like to talk further, feel free to PM me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I wouldn't exactly say I'm paroting anything. I have been told the same thing from local mentors




That's what parroting is. You've taken advice that you were given for your situation, and passed it on to another jumper, for whom it may or may not apply.

Your level of experince had nothing to do with my undermining you. If you had twice as many jumps as me, and gave the same advice, I still would have undermined you. It's not personal, just business.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a same problem few times with brand new Radical 135 (similar to Katana) and line trim is perfect. After I am done with 180 I add another front and canopy sometimes starts "bucking" but this happens only if I am in turbulent air. I just drop front risers and flight is restored. So, make sure you are far from turbulence (obsticles). :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It was the line length. Went up and went thru the motions and then turned around and SOB if there wasn't any slack back there. Let out 2.5 in to start.

Dont' laugh there Josh, I may well jump your's someday but toggle monkey mode is for accuracy only.
It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

It was the line length. Went up and went thru the motions and then turned around and SOB if there wasn't any slack back there. Let out 2.5 in to start.

Dont' laugh there Josh, I may well jump your's someday but toggle monkey mode is for accuracy only.



Glad you got it sorted out now don't get hurt!. :)
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm in a similiar situaiton of having a Sabre 170 to eventually moving to a 150/140 size canopy (most likely Pilot).

After almost 200 conservative double-front landings and small carves (10 to 45 degrees), I finally did my first 90 degree swoop on my Sabre 170 (Wingload 1.1) at Skydive Cross Keys, after doing almos 150 jumps of double fronts and a few dozen jumps of carving turns and 10 degree, 30 degrees and 45 degrees. Although that one planed out too high and I stopped turning, so I had to keep double fronts to dive it down and land double-fronts.

During the same weekend, I had the opportunity to demo an Aerodyne Pilot 150, and it has a snappy recovery arc. I only did double fronts on it, and one 10-degree swoop on it, and observed the differences.

It's clearly not safe to learn the same swooping techniques on two different canopies, but after Aerodyne attended Rainbow Boogie 2009 with their demo booth, I'm seriously considering going Pilot instead of Sabre2, but I'm wondering if I need to jump some higher-performance 9-cells that Aerodyne sells.

For the meantime, I'm going to do a few of 90 degree swoops even at just wingload 1.15 -- it requires lower altitude initiations than the smaller canopies, so am aware of that risk. I'm not sure I ever plan to do 180 degrees or 270 degrees. That said, I'd like a brand new 140 or 150 canopy within the next few months, and it's a tough decision, since I want something that feels easy (at approx 1.3 or 1.35), very easy to gradually expand to 90 degree swoops under, and something I can jump for about 500 jumps like I will have my Sabre 170 by the time I get it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I got lots of 90 degrees swoop on a Pilot 150.

Quote

I'm going to do a few of 90 degree swoops even at just wingload 1.15 -- it requires lower altitude initiations than the smaller canopies, so am aware of that risk.



That WL is not for swoop, thats for fight with your front risers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0