Using double fronts in turbulent conditions will....

[DocPop 1]

I have heard arguments for both cases - so I thought I'd ask the experts.

Thanks!

[LetsGoOutside 0]

I'd have to go with the first one, based on foot launching sport canopies in extremely turbulent conditions. Running with a little pressure on the front risers cuts through it better than no input or any pressure on brakes or rears. Speed is stability.

[yoink 321]

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I'd have to go with the first one, based on foot launching sport canopies in extremely turbulent conditions. Running with a little pressure on the front risers cuts through it better than no input or any pressure on brakes or rears. Speed is stability.

That doesn't exactly translate though as you're talking about pre-launch, not fully suspended flight. As such, your canopy isn't anywhere near completely pressurised.
My experience with various models of wings on launch is that you want to stay as far as possible away from inducing your nose to tuck.
I completely agree that in general speed is stability, but using your front risers when you run has little beneficial effect on the stability of the canopy. You're far better served by getting your head down and running like a good 'un, while keeping slight pressure on your brakes or rear risers, canopy dependent. You're actively forcing air into the wing by the speed you're running, and keeping tension on the lines, as it's slightly behind you.

You're even better served by not launching in extremely turbulent conditions, however! ;)


For the OP, my gut feeling (for what it's worth!) is 'it depends on your canopy size, wingloading and canopy type...' Helpful, huh?

There are a couple of articles by Brian Germain talking about this. I believe he thought that for higher wing loadings, consistant, smooth, high G turns on front risers keeps the wing super-pressurised, while on lighter loaded wings, you're far better served by keeping very slight tension on the brakes and using constant active piloting to keep the wing in it's optimum position above you.

[DocPop 1]

Wow - very split decision so far. It's been 50:50 the whole way.

Is there anyone who teaches canopy control who would like to comment?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[Pendragon 1]

I've thought about this a lot; I think it depends on how much double front input you put in.

If a lot, you begin to tuck the nose, which will lead to depressurisation - and so it will be more susceptible to turbulence.

Anything that decreases your angle of attack and reduces the pressure differential between the upper and lower surfaces on the canopy will make it less susceptible to turbulence. So, flying toggles up better than half-brakes etc.

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BASE #1182
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[shropshire 0]

If I'm flying in turbulance on my Paraglider, the last thing that I would do is use the Speed bar (same as double front)... I fly with a 'little' break on, to keep the canopy pressurised.
Speed bar 'could' increase the chance of a full frontal tuck .... not good.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[rhys 0]

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If I'm flying in turbulance on my Paraglider, the last thing that I would do is use the Speed bar (same as double front)... I fly with a 'little' break on, to keep the canopy pressurised.
Speed bar 'could' increase the chance of a full frontal tuck .... not good.

paragliders and parachutes are trimmed very differently.

Correct me if I am wrong?..

Speed bars have a limited range and if you go any further than they will allow, the result will likely be a frontal collapse. This is the trade off you get for the extra glide ratio you achieve on a paraglder?

I was contemplating getting a speed flying wing made by a paragliding company recently but through research, found out that this is not what I want for one major reason.

I like to use front riser turns to keep proximity with the ground when the gloung bluffs out, I will not fly(full time) a speed flying wing made by a paragliding company. for tis reason I'll sick with a GLX, JVX or some other parachute.

I do agree however that using a 'little' toggle pressure to keep the canopy pressurised is a good idea in turbulance, If you are up high front riser turns are also good.

I see alot of buffeting when I see people using double fronts, I can't imagine that would help in turbulance?

This subject has many different points of view, High wing loading v's low wing loading, flying straight apposed to initiating a turn...

Don't we all love turbulance!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[shropshire 0]

Yes I'm sure that they are trimmed differently ... but ashamed to say that I don't know how differently.

I do know that even on my Sabre 1 I could not hold double fronts for very long (weak old man) so not sure how much difference it would make to my overal flight path.... Speed bar is a lot easier
I also haven't played with the trimers on my Nano yet (something to play with next winter).

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[diablopilot 2]

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I do agree however that using a 'little' toggle pressure to keep the canopy pressurised is a good idea in turbulance

Momentary use of toggles will aid in keeping a canopy pressurized as it reduces the volume of the cell. Continued use has a negative effect as it slows the airspeed, and the only thing keeping the canopy inflated is ram air pressure.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[rhys 0]

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Momentary use of toggles will aid in keeping a canopy pressurized as it reduces the volume of the cell. Continued use has a negative effect as it slows the airspeed, and the only thing keeping the canopy inflated is ram air pressure.

I guess that is what i meant also, you know when your canopy starts shaking and you are getting bumped around and you sphincter starts puckering, that s when I might put a little brake on for a bit. If I have height I will start a slow front riser turn after that to get away from the ugly pocket of air.

The only time I have had a decent collapse was on a spectre 150 going down wind and the thing just folded in half. that was int he mountains though and most definately the last load for the day.

What is your method during turbulance, if you are actually in the air at the time?

Definately a subjectictive matter.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[F16Driver 0]

I would throw this example in just for thought. Say you go into a level of windshear where you get a -15mph change in windspeed (BTW, this happens in a lot of landing areas surrounded by trees). The canopy is going to surge forward to get back it's flying airspeed. Would you want to be in brakes when this happens?

Personally, I want my canopy pressurized and fast so I can easily compensate for that change by exchanging speed for lift. Also, with the canopy being pressurized, there is less of a chance of it folding up.

"I promise, I will never die."