Options for improving plane out altitude

[DocPop 1]

I am currently flying a Sabre2 150 loaded at about 1.25.

I am doing 90 degree front riser approaches (sometimes up to about 135 degree, depending on altitude) as follows:

- base leg in brakes
- double fronts
- harness and slight let up on one riser
- double fronts

This was what was recommended to me by Luigi Cani.

I have a Suunto on my wrist and a Viso on a mudflap mount which I use for determining my initiation point which is currently at about 300 feet for a 90.

The trouble I am having is that I am consistently planing out too high, even after hanging on to double fronts as long as I physically can after the turn and trying to make the turn last as long as possible.

It seems to me that I have three options:

1. Start my turns lower
2. Get a smaller (or different) canopy so it will lose more altitude in the turn
3. Increase the angle of the turn (maybe go to 180s)

Any comments would be welcome (and all the usual warnings are understood and do not need to be repeated).

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[jakee 1,254]

So from what I gather about your post, you've decided that your initiation point will be at 300ft, and now you're trying to find the turn that fits that initiation point.

Don't you think you're coming at this a little bit arse about face?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[DocPop 1]

Not quite - I have been using 300' and not getting the result I want.

I am now asking for advice about which option will be best to address my problem to give me the best result in the safest way.

I am not going to make any changes until after my next canopy control class next month because I know it's not really possible to coach canopy piloting on the internet, but I was hoping for some thoughts from the experienced canopy pilots here.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[tetra316 0]

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Not quite - I have been using 300' and not getting the result I want.

You cannot just pick an initiation altitude and try to force your turn from there. You need to adjust your initiation point based on the conditions such as wingloading, wind, humidity etc. You need to find that point at which your turn is too low as well as too high. Until you have that figured out, you will not have a correct initiation point and you will not progress. Better to sort this out now on a somewhat docile canopy and loading.

The same logic applies to everything. You will not find the correct point until you know what it too high and what it too low. Gradually bring your turn altitude down until you find your self digging out of the corner by applying toggles to level your wing. Once you know that point that start bringing the turn point back up until you find that sweet spot.

You need to be able to recognize when you are too low as well as too high. Right now it sounds like you are simply too high for your turn/wingloading/conditions.

[jacketsdb23 45]

Go up to 13K and do a hop and pop. Play around with different style turns...quick turns, long turns, and make sure you are keeping an eye on your altimeter so you know what type of altitude you are losing during each turn. There is not a one stop shop for initiation altitude (even if you are really really good, you won't always hit the same initiation point all the time).

When I say quick turns i'm talking in terms of time not degree of your turn. I can do a 270 in 4 - 5 seconds or snap turn much quicker. Same with your 90's. You can do a very slow metered 90 turn or a quick snap 90. Each style burns up different amounts of altitude. I recommend reading Parachute and its Pilot by Brian Germain. Also talk with instructors at your DZ.

Once you've done that about 10 times bring the turn down low and you should have a better idea of what turns you can do and from which altitude to start from.

Cheers!

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[BMFin 0]

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You need to adjust your initiation point based on the conditions such as wingloading, wind, humidity etc.

Wind ?

May I ask you how exactly do you adjust your initiation altitude according to wind conditions ?

[tetra316 0]

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You need to adjust your initiation point based on the conditions such as wingloading, wind, humidity etc.

Wind ?

May I ask you how exactly do you adjust your initiation altitude according to wind conditions ?

With no wind you have no resistance once you face into the wind therefore it does not effect your flight pattern. If there is wind if will effect your canopy by giving you more lift. I'm sure there are others more qualified to answer the technical aspects.

[BMFin 0]

Wind does not affect the initiation altitude.

Your canopy doesnt know if there is wind or not. It flies same way in the surrounding air mass anyway. Sure the wind does make the planeout squence look different in different wind conditions. However the canopy will loose as much altitude regardless of the wind.

[DocPop 1]

So what I'm hearing is that of my 3 options, #1 is the one to go for.

Thanks - that does help.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[tetra316 0]

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Wind does not affect the initiation altitude.

Your canopy doesnt know if there is wind or not. It flies same way in the surrounding air mass anyway. Sure the wind does make the planeout squence look different in different wind conditions. However the canopy will loose as much altitude regardless of the wind.

Maybe not the way/canopy type/whatever you fly. But I know if there is a 15mph wind that I will be landing into I start my turn lower. If I don't I will plane out too high as there is more resistance. On no wind days there is no resistance therefore my turn is started higher. This is with the same type/length of turn. Sure you can adjust your turn length/aggressiveness so that you can start at the same altitude regardless of wind conditions. Personal preference.

[AggieDave 6]

Please explain exactly what the wind does to actually change how long your canopy takes to recover. Feel free to cite any respected canopy instructor that you can find that agrees with you in your explanation.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[YISkyDive 0]

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You need to adjust your initiation point based on the conditions such as wingloading, wind, humidity etc.

Wind ?

May I ask you how exactly do you adjust your initiation altitude according to wind conditions ?

Wind can and will absolutely mess with your turn height. Wind layers are not uniform and when starting turns in the 1000+ mark as you regularly can flow through different moving masses of air.

If there is wind shear, or a strong change in wind speed between certain altitudes (especially during the recovery phase) you better be well aware of it before you turn canopy because your canopy needs to recover the lost airspeed when entering a slower layer of wind thus costing altitude.

Finally, I also turn according to the wind direction (as the DZ I jump at has a specific high performance landing area and we can turn left or right in that area) so I can get a “downwind push” coming out of the turn.

[ianmdrennan 2]

While it is true that windshear can effect altitude loss during a HP landing, it is rare that this is actually the case (unless there are large obstacles around on a windy day).

In almost every scenario, the altitude variation is because the PILOT is changing their rotation rate because of visual cues that are changing.

ie: You're changing your turn from what you do on a wind day vs a non-windy day and that is why you are seeing the altitude variations.

Wind speed DOES NOT affect turn altitude unless there are rapid increases, or decreases during your turn (ie gusts). Even then, the variations are typically quite small in all but extreme conditions.

In a nutshell - you should NOT be adjusting your turn height based on the winds for the day - what you should be doing is be aware of the changed visual cues and recognize what they should be for the given conditions.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[AggieDave 6]

Ian,

That's why I wanted a full explanation, to figure out why this untrue myth continues to be perpetuated.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[BMFin 0]

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Maybe not the way/canopy type/whatever you fly. But I know if there is a 15mph wind that I will be landing into I start my turn lower.

Please dont teach this to anyone else at your DZ. It applies to every canopy/style. Wind does not affect the initiation altitude..

[tetra316 0]

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Quote

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You need to adjust your initiation point based on the conditions such as wingloading, wind, humidity etc.

Wind ?

May I ask you how exactly do you adjust your initiation altitude according to wind conditions ?

Wind can and will absolutely mess with your turn height. Wind layers are not uniform and when starting turns in the 1000+ mark as you regularly can flow through different moving masses of air.

If there is wind shear, or a strong change in wind speed between certain altitudes (especially during the recovery phase) you better be well aware of it before you turn canopy because your canopy needs to recover the lost airspeed when entering a slower layer of wind thus costing altitude.

Finally, I also turn according to the wind direction (as the DZ I jump at has a specific high performance landing area and we can turn left or right in that area) so I can get a “downwind push” coming out of the turn.

This is what I was trying get at I think. If you all say basic wind does not affect altitude loss then why do we adjust our landing pattern based on the wind. After all they teach that in AFF.

I guess I'm thinking of wind speed as just another variable just like humidity, temperature etc. If humidity and temperature affect altitude loss during turns why doesn't wind. I honestly want to know.

[wildcard451 0]

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This is what I was trying get at I think. If you all say basic wind does not affect altitude loss then why do we adjust our landing pattern based on the wind. After all they teach that in AFF.

I guess I'm thinking of wind speed as just another variable just like humidity, temperature etc. If humidity and temperature affect altitude loss during turns why doesn't wind. I honestly want to know.

Read Ian's reply above.

In HP landings, you still have to adjust your pattern to deal with whatever winds you are experiencing, just like non-HP landings, all the way back to AFF...

However, once you reach your initiation point, and begin to turn, the only effect the wind will have is on your position over the ground as you move through your turn. It should have minimal, if any at all, effect on the vertical component or your turn.

/doesn't know anything
//still learning
///just my understanding of it

[marks 0]

Quote

While it is true that windshear can effect altitude loss during a HP landing, it is rare that this is actually the case (unless there are large obstacles around on a windy day).

In almost every scenario, the altitude variation is because the PILOT is changing their rotation rate because of visual cues that are changing.

ie: You're changing your turn from what you do on a wind day vs a non-windy day and that is why you are seeing the altitude variations.

Wind speed DOES NOT affect turn altitude unless there are rapid increases, or decreases during your turn (ie gusts). Even then, the variations are typically quite small in all but extreme conditions.

In a nutshell - you should NOT be adjusting your turn height based on the winds for the day - what you should be doing is be aware of the changed visual cues and recognize what they should be for the given conditions.

Blues,
Ian

+1

I found that this was one of the hardest things for my brain to grasp when I was learning to swoop.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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If you all say basic wind does not affect altitude loss then why do we adjust our landing pattern based on the wind. After all they teach that in AFF.

There is a difference between the vertical and the horizontal component. What you're seeing in the horizontal component is drift over the ground (different to airspeed) so you have to account for the drift to reach your target.

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I guess I'm thinking of wind speed as just another variable just like humidity, temperature etc. If humidity and temperature affect altitude loss during turns why doesn't wind. I honestly want to know.

Your canopy is moving with the airmass. Try this exercise: Grab the dz's wind meter and go make a jump and pull at altitude (there's almost always uppers blowing). Face 'into' the wind and wait for a few seconds for the canopy to settle out, do not put any inputs in - get a wind reading. Then, turn 180 degress, let the canopy settle out and take a wind reading again - the results will be the same.

A more tactile example would be - if you're facing 'into' the uppers does the wind sound louder (ie faster) than when you face in any other direction? The answer is no.

Hope this helps,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[YISkyDive 0]

Thanks for the clarification Ian.

Quite commonly at the airport I jump at we have a lower mass of air @ ~ 200 - 300 feet that moves slower then whatever is above it when the upper winds are in excess of 15 knots. If I know my uppers are higher then I do plan my turn higher. (And for the most part I don’t change my turn rate but I do adjust it based on what I see as I am turning)

To your point: The slower mass of air is caused by a significant ridge 3/4 of a mile to our north. The dive of the canopy when these conditions occur can become very aggressive as it is recovering airspeed and it also makes digging out a chore and even next to impossible. I watched a good friend do a 180 from a "safe" height but once he entered the slower airmass he was done and got very lucky with only a bummed knee. The canopy never ever had a chance to recover even though he started the turn at an acceptable altitude.

Thanks for helping me connect the dots… now I know why wind shear is common at my airport. Never registered the ridge a mile out was causing the common condition.

[timmyfitz 0]

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This is what I was trying get at I think. If you all say basic wind does not affect altitude loss then why do we adjust our landing pattern based on the wind. After all they teach that in AFF.

People are taught to adjust there pattern/initiation POINT in different wind conditions, not initiation ALTITUDE. That is was is taught in AFF.

[Mikko 0]

The altitude loss doesn't change (if you're doing the same turn), but...Like Ian said, the visual changes a lot.

Landing headwind gives you a lot different visual of recovery arc than downwind. This is the thing that makes it confusing.

For example: Let's assume in your normal recovery you fly forward (horizontal component) 50 meters on a no-wind day.

And let's assume that landing downwind and it takes about 4 seconds to recover from the vertical dive-->the horizontal distance traveled (compared to the ground) during recovery is 50m + downwind x 4seconds.
Landing headwind it's 50m - headwind x 4 seconds.

If the wind is 5 meters/second downwind then horizontal component of the recovery arc is 70m on the ground, if headwind, its only 30m.
This makes a huge difference in the visual you get during the recovery. When landing downwind, if the recovery looks like the one when landing headwind...you are a way too low already.