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Z-Brace technology/R&D/Sponsorship stuff (was: Something new from PD)

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It is also worth noting that the velocity is a 7 cell with with aspect ratio of a 9 cell. So, you get the same performing wing with less line drag.

I have a skyworks RDS with 500 lb dacron between the slider and dbag (which has a pocket in the dbag for it). I take mine to terminal virtually every jump. I get good openings everytime and do not have any damage to my canopy from the system.

peace, Jon
death,as men call him, ends what they call men
-but beauty is more now than dying’s when

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I've flown 3 of them.

As I said, they are a good canopy, but I like my JVX better.

Is it an offence to have my own opinion.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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I am proud to say I am NOT a JVX pilot, but the JVX is a great canopy. Bottom line, the debate between which one of these two canopies is the better canopy comes down to style.

I like certain things, like soft front risers as I like to dig and work them. The JVX has rock hard risers. Now some people might like that, I don't. The JVX also dives less than the velocity, I like a canopy that dives long.

Remember also that the comp velo was designed with the help of the PD factory team and they like ... whatever thast canopy offers, hence the canopy that they fly is that according to their style. Now without trying to sound offensive and I most likely have some facts wrong, would you not say the Jim Slaton like hard front risers hence the JVX is his style canopy. Both Jay and Jim both fly their canpies extremely well. They just have different styles.

Lastly look at the top 3 at the world meet, Velo, JVX, Velo, JVX.

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It is also worth noting that the velocity is a 7 cell with with aspect ratio of a 9 cell. So, you get the same performing wing with less line drag.



Just because the aspect ratio is the same(similar), that does not mean the performance is the same.

Why do paragliders have so many cells? Why are 9 cells more common than 7 cells in this day and age, does a thicker airfoil not have more drag than a thinner one? do stabalisers not cause added drag?

There is alot more to it than apect ratio and the number of cells. The drag of the extra lines is reduced by a better, flatter, more rigid, thinner airfoil and the exclusion of the stabalisers would counter-act the addition of the lines somewhat also.

PD lover will love PD and Daedalus Lover will love Daedalus as Icarus lovers and Precision lovers will love Icarus and Precision.

The best pilots will always win, but they may not have to be on the best wing to do so.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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It is also worth noting that the velocity is a 7 cell with with aspect ratio of a 9 cell. So, you get the same performing wing with less line drag.





As a 7(21) and 9(27) cell pilot, I'm going to say that statement is inaccurate.:)
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Just curious why you would say this is inaccurate. I understand this from talking with factory reps and my own experience jumping 27 cell Xaoses and owning and 21 cell Xaos and a Velo. Further, I remember Chuck Blue laying a vx 92 over a velo 96 and the two canopies having very similar dimensions.

So, just curious what your opinion is based on. But understand, I've jumped and enjoyed both velos and xaoses and like them for what they do and I am not prepared to hit someone with my dick, like some of the responses in this forum, when someone disagrees.

thanks, Jon
death,as men call him, ends what they call men
-but beauty is more now than dying’s when

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, I remember Chuck Blue laying a vx 92 over a velo 96 and the two canopies having very similar dimensions.



Similar dimensions and similar flight charactaristics are two separate things.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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The JVX has rock hard risers. Now some people might like that, I don't.



Harden up cupcake:P, I have no trouble getting my JVX to dive, a mushy front riser is not good for high performance landings.

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The JVX also dives less than the velocity



:|...



If you think a JVX is a great canopy why are you proud that you don't own one?
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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a mushy front riser is not good for high performance landings.



Says who? Besides which, Velo front risers are anything but mushy. The start of lighter than a JVX for sure, but they're rock hard when you're cruising.

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The JVX also dives less than the velocity



He's right, it does. It's most noticable in the recovery arc - which is shorter on the JVX. It's not a bad thing, or a good thing, it's just different.

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If you think a JVX is a great canopy why are you proud that you don't own one?



He very clearly says it's because of difference in style.

I happen to agree with him - just like there are plenty of good cars out there, I buy ones that fit my needs/style/customer service history/etc.

Canopies are no different.

It's awesome the JVX is doing so well for you, I'm glad you like it, but 'better' (regardless of which canopy type you prefer) is a very subjective term.

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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What Ian said.

The Velo flies differently than anything else out there. It flies very fast, very steep, dives forever, and is extremely sensitive to any sort of input. It's a much "twitchier" ride than its counterparts. It requires input pretty much constantly through a HP landing, where as the VX, Xaos 27, etc, tend to "fly themselves" / "turf surf" for a moment a bit after the recovery arc (which is significantly shorter). Also, the Velo's real power lies beyond the 270, whereas the others tend to yield about the same results from 270 and up.

It's two totally different styles of flying and it really comes down to what you enjoy and what your canopy progression was. Velocity flight is an acquired taste for sure, and I'd dare say more work to dial in than the other HP canopies on the market, but IMO, the personal reward and satisfaction you get when it finally "clicks" is huge.

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Says who?



Says me;)

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Besides which, Velo front risers are anything but mushy. The start of lighter than a JVX for sure, but they're rock hard when you're cruising.



I never said velocity risers are mushy, just pointing out that firm front risers are not a bad thing.

More riser pressure overall (front and rear risers) on the same wing loading would have to mean more lift, otherwise what else is creating the added tension between the canopy and the pilot?

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The JVX also dives less than the velocity

He's right, it does. It's most noticable in the recovery arc - which is shorter on the JVX. It's not a bad thing, or a good thing, it's just different.



Explain?

From what I have learned, the recovery arc is very separate from the dive, it takes some time diving the canopy until it has reached its maximum potential speed, If this manoeuvre is performed well it would take a lot longer to dive the canopy than the recovery arc would take.

The recover arc has not a lot to do with the diving. Diving happens from the input from the pilot including; wing loading, type of input(harness, riser/s combined), the rate of turn and the amount of degrees in the turn. The recovery arc simply takes that momentum from vertical to a horizontal.

On a lower turn with minimal input, yes a slightly longer recovery arc will create slightly more speed but the speed should already have been generated before the recovery arc starts, if we are talking about optimum performance levels.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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The Velo flies differently than anything else out there. It flies very fast, very steep, dives forever, and is extremely sensitive to any sort of input. It's a much "twitchier" ride than its counterparts. It requires input pretty much constantly through a HP landing, where as the VX, Xaos 27, etc, tend to "fly themselves" / "turf surf" for a moment a bit after the recovery arc (which is significantly shorter).



You can have your twitchy, but I don't believe velos are twitchy? Heatwaves and Stilettos are twitchy.


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Also, the Velo's real power lies beyond the 270, whereas the others tend to yield about the same results from 270 and up.



So you are saying that Nick Batch's 665 ft swoop could/should have been done with a 270 degree turn?

:D

Dreaming!

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It's two totally different styles of flying and it really comes down to what you enjoy and what your canopy progression was.



Agreed

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Velocity flight is an acquired taste for sure, and I'd dare say more work to dial in than the other HP canopies on the market but IMO, the personal reward and satisfaction you get when it finally "clicks" is huge.



So you are saying that because it was harder to learn on, that contributes to it being a better canopy or more rewarding to learn to fly?

I like the stability of my JVX, it is very predictable and I am glad I don’t have to consistently correct it.

It is still fast and I can be as aggressive as I want. I would hate it if it did things that I didn't want it to do.

Each to their own though, I suppose.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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The Velo ....'s a much "twitchier" ride than its counterparts. It requires input pretty much constantly through a HP landing, where as the VX, Xaos 27, etc, tend to "fly themselves" ... Also, the Velo's real power lies beyond the 270, whereas the others tend to yield about the same results from 270 and up.

I totally disagree with that. It's just not true.

Any highly loaded canopy would be pretty twitchy and will require constant flying. I doubt any canopy loaded that high "flies itself". i've seen great pilots do average swoops with large turns on 27 cells. Also seen others put up very impressive times with 270 on velo's. And lets not forget a world record speed time by Hans under a velo with an old school style 270 ;)

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It's two totally different styles of flying and it really comes down to what you enjoy and what your canopy progression was. ... the personal reward and satisfaction you get when it finally "clicks" is huge.

But I completely agree with this ;)

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Says me



And you're entitled to that opinion - just remember, like most things on this forum, it's an opinion - not fact.

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More riser pressure overall (front and rear risers) on the same wing loading would have to mean more lift, otherwise what else is creating the added tension between the canopy and the pilot?



Where the pilot is suspended under the wing, amongst other things, dictates riser pressure. You cannot simplify it into "overall high riser pressure = more lift". You're not taking into account a myriad of factors, and are using what I refer to as "junk science" to quantify your standpoint. It's along the same lines as "my canopy dives more in a headwind cause the wind is hitting the topskin" - which we all know is non-sense, but sounds like it'd be true.

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Explain?



Very simple. I've done 2 ways with JVX pilots on comparable wing sizes and loadings. I would always out dive them, even with the same turn style. Regarding the actual recovery arc they'd stop turning slightly lower and roll out quicker.

If that doesn't satisfy you, feel free to ask Frost (who jumps a JVX, borrowed a Velo and found it dived more), Eric Miller (who jumps a JVX and recently started flying a velo on occasion), Stu, Paul R......etc ;)

In a nutshell - from the start of a turn until plane out is achieved, the JVX uses less altitude. This is because it dives slightly less while turning, and rolls out faster because of it's flatter trim.

Once again, this isn't a good vs bad thing, it's just different. If that style of wing appeals to you, then more power to you - just realize it doesn't appeal to everyone (just like the velo doesn't appeal to everyone either).

Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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So you are saying that Nick Batch's 665 ft swoop could/should have been done with a 270 degree turn?



Just so we're clear - that was a verticle and there's been so much BS surrounding it I doubt we'll ever know what the true distance was. Unfortunately, it was used as marketing hype which should be taken as just that - Marketing.

I've had the pleasure of watching Nick B swoop for a few years now - and yes he goes really far and is a really good pilot - but there are others (under different wings) doing anything from a 270 to a 450 - landing out there with him at the 500+ foot mark - Hans, Marat, Jay, Tommy D, John Zuliani

So yes, a 270 can go just as far with the right pilot (although it's a lot less likely for sure).

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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This little "which canopy is better" thead seems kind of pointless, it's like to two religious fanatics trying to argue which religion is better, all we get is war and bullshit.

If one wants to give out accurate info about the differences between two canopies so people coming up can make logical decisions then that's a different story.

picking a canopy to swoop, either for competition or beer line, basically comes down to preference, feel, and how much bullshit they can put up with when dealing with a manufacturer/ rep. But once you do pick a canopy the dive and the roll-out are arguably the most important aspects of a swoop. the dive obviously gets you the speed to swoop but the ability to control the roll-out and maintane that speed is what lets you go as far or as fast as you do. if you're low or high obviously you're going to go slower or not as far, so having the proper roll-out is crucial to a good swoop. On the Velo the roll-out portion tends to be a little bit longer then the JVX just because of the different platforms, but when done properly on both they'll go nearly identical distances as shown at the last world championships. an easy way to look at the differences in how each canopy reacts in the roll-out is timing them, i've noticed on the Velocity a good time range for a roll-out is 2.5-3, maybe a little more if you're really highly loaded. while on the jvx a 1.5-2 second roll-out is not uncommon for good results.

again, this is just my opinion and as we learn more and more about the way these canopies fly things will most likely change.

p.s. the roll-out is defined as the exact time when you stop your turn and come on heading until you go through the gates
Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down


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And you're entitled to that opinion - just remember, like most things on this forum, it's an opinion - not fact.



Sure, this is a discussion forum and that is what we are doing, discussing.

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Where the pilot is suspended under the wing, amongst other things, dictates riser pressure.


that is a great point

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You cannot simplify it into "overall high riser pressure = more lift". You're not taking into account a myriad of factors, and are using what I refer to as "junk science" to quantify your standpoint.



Not really that statement had a question mark at the end of it, I was aking your opinion.

The quesion in perhaps a better format is; If under the same wingloading, on a different canopy, you have more pressure on all risers(all 4 ar the same time) flying straight, With the same exit weight...

would that not mean there is more lift being created?

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In a nutshell - from the start of a turn until plane out is achieved, the JVX uses less altitude. This is because it dives slightly less while turning, and rolls out faster because of it's flatter trim.



This is the good stuff, information produced from real experimentation.

Is it IYO only the flatter trim that is making the recovery arc shorter on the JVX or could the possibility of more lift contribute also?

I am trying to learn here, am not trying to argue.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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picking a canopy to swoop, either for competition or beer line, basically comes down to preference, feel, and how much bullshit they can put up with when dealing with a manufacturer/ rep. But once you do pick a canopy the dive and the roll-out are arguably the most important aspects of a swoop. the dive obviously gets you the speed to swoop but the ability to control the roll-out and maintane that speed is what lets you go as far or as fast as you do. if you're low or high obviously you're going to go slower or not as far, so having the proper roll-out is crucial to a good swoop. On the Velo the roll-out portion tends to be a little bit longer then the JVX just because of the different platforms, but when done properly on both they'll go nearly identical distances as shown at the last world championships. an easy way to look at the differences in how each canopy reacts in the roll-out is timing them, i've noticed on the Velocity a good time range for a roll-out is 2.5-3, maybe a little more if you're really highly loaded. while on the jvx a 1.5-2 second roll-out is not uncommon for good results.


Well said. I for one am all about the experience, not the competition. I just plain enjoy the longer dive more. I guess I sort of look at the "roll out"... the bit of a swoop between the dive and the plane out, as the best part -- the roller coaster ride. The Velo feels like a bigger drop.

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This little "which canopy is better" thead seems kind of pointless, it's like to two religious fanatics trying to argue which religion is better, all we get is war and bullshit.



Really this thread was started because there was an announcement from PD that there is something new coming out.

I thought it might be the illusive z brace technology that was talked about 2 years ago, which by the way NZaerosports had already developed but not named yet at the time.

A modertor then snipped a section of the 'Something new from PD' thread and began this one.

I want to know what happens next in canopy technology, i know there is differences between Velo and JVX and I have never said Velos are bad, just some hear it that way.

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If one wants to give out accurate info about the differences between two canopies so people coming up can make logical decisions then that's a different story.



That is part of what I am after. I am comfortable with my 270's and am looking at working on the skills needed to perform 450's accurately and benificially. I'm gonna be running outside camera almost full time soon so want to get my head around what I am dealing with so i can tune my practice drills as best as i can before i bring these things down to ground level. I know I can't get my JVX to go as fast as it can go in a 270's contrary to what others have said here. I saw my friend go to 450's without really doing much preparation for them ans as well as he is keeping out of the corner I belive he is not diving the canopy as much as he could. But is still getting pretty good results. I wann get maximum benifit without too much added danger.

What interestes me though is the differences between 7 and 9 cell crossbraced, the trim of such canopies and where the next step is going to be.

I really doubt PD's next big thing will be another 7 cell but only time will tell.

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once you do pick a canopy the dive and the roll-out are arguably the most important aspects of a swoop. the dive obviously gets you the speed to swoop but the ability to control the roll-out and maintane that speed is what lets you go as far or as fast as you do. if you're low or high obviously you're going to go slower or not as far, so having the proper roll-out is crucial to a good swoop. On the Velo the roll-out portion tends to be a little bit longer then the JVX just because of the different platforms, but when done properly on both they'll go nearly identical distances as shown at the last world championships. an easy way to look at the differences in how each canopy reacts in the roll-out is timing them, i've noticed on the Velocity a good time range for a roll-out is 2.5-3, maybe a little more if you're really highly loaded. while on the jvx a 1.5-2 second roll-out is not uncommon for good results.



Thanks for that information, it is consitent with what Ian has experienced also and makes a whole lot of sense. Also it is consistent with my thoughts but the unanswered portion is effect of the different roll outs or recovery arcs.

Is a shorter recovery recovery arc influenced by the trim alone? or is the lift produced a real contributing factor?

Assuming the canopy is diving at its maximum potential speed when the the controls are released/begin to release, and the roll out begins at the right height...

Is a shorter or longer recovery arc going to make a difference in the amount of momentum/speed once the canopy had levelled out?

Will a canopy with more lift recover faster due to the lift?
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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Is a shorter recovery recovery arc influenced by the trim alone? or is the lift produced a real contributing factor? Swooping is a complete system and therefore everything relates to one another. it's that whole "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Assuming the canopy is diving at its maximum potential speed when the the controls are released/begin to release, and the roll out begins at the right height...

Is a shorter or longer recovery arc going to make a difference in the amount of momentum/speed once the canopy had levelled out? the cleaner the pilot can get through the recovery arc, meaning the least amount of input needed to plain out, then the more speed/ momentum is conserved thus more swoopy swoop for the pilot.

Will a canopy with more lift recover faster due to the lift? The more speed you have the more lift you have. So the more speed you have the faster you can get through the recovery arc. the amount of lift produced by a canopy is based on platform, trim, lift/drag ratio, and so on.
Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down


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Where the pilot is suspended under the wing, amongst other things, dictates riser pressure.


that is a great point

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You cannot simplify it into "overall high riser pressure = more lift". You're not taking into account a myriad of factors, and are using what I refer to as "junk science" to quantify your standpoint.



Not really that statement had a question mark at the end of it, I was aking your opinion.

The quesion in perhaps a better format is; If under the same wingloading, on a different canopy, you have more pressure on all risers(all 4 ar the same time) flying straight, With the same exit weight...

would that not mean there is more lift being created?
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When flying straight you'd have the same summary "pressure" (force) on your risers no mater what canopy and wingloading you flying... = the force of your weight
And having the same "pressure" you can have a huge difference in amount of lift created by canopy from near zero for round canopy (the only force holding your vertical speed is drag) to various value for various ram-air canopies (trim, WL etc...)

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

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I saw my friend go to 450's without really doing much preparation for them ans as well as he is keeping out of the corner I belive he is not diving the canopy as much as he could.


What many pilots do not understand is that if you are not getting the 270 nailed the chances of them nailing a larger turn are minimal. The dynamics need to be understood first and then the larger turn may give them more speed. If your turn is not dynamic on a 270 and you are able to put the power where it counts, a larger turn will only be a disadvantage.
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What interestes me though is the differences between 7 and 9 cell crossbraced, the trim of such canopies and where the next step is going to be.


The best way to experience this is to jump the different wings for a number of jumps. I jumped a whole lot of different Xaos's before I decided to go with the Velocity. The Xoas seemed be able recover in the roll out with no input, or very little, where the Velocity would need more input. A different way to explain this would be that the Xaos had a positive recovery arc, so it would feel as if you gain altitude coming out of a turn in the last part after the roll out, before going back to normal flight. The Velocity on the other hand would not do that and could be referred to as a negative recovery arc. The difference then would be that the recovery arc that is positive, would be shorter as in the instance of the JVX.
“It takes ten years to get ten years’ experience” Eric "tonto" Stephenson D515 PASA

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